Speed Limit Offshore

[atldc9]

Cvsfly, What part of hotdogging is following ATC clearances? MIA and FLL arrivals from the AR routes routinely receive the clearance to 'keep your speed up, I'll call your 12 mile speed reduction.'

The AIM has sounded in on this very clearly. And by the way, for poor slobs like me who have a POI that has made AIM recommendations MANDATORY by our Flight Operations Manual, the FAA is perfectly happy with this practice.

AIM section 4-4-11, SPEED ADJUSTMENTS

i. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to U.S. registered aircraft operating beyond 12 nautical miles from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c).

 

[cvsfly]

Cvsfly, What part of hotdogging is following ATC clearances? MIA and FLL arrivals from the AR routes routinely receive the clearance to 'keep your speed up, I'll call your 12 mile speed reduction.'

The AIM has sounded in on this very clearly. And by the way, for poor slobs like me who have a POI that has made AIM recommendations MANDATORY by our Flight Operations Manual, the FAA is perfectly happy with this practice.

AIM section 4-4-11, SPEED ADJUSTMENTS

i. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to U.S. registered aircraft operating beyond 12 nautical miles from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c).

Fact is, there are alot of GA trafic low level more than 12 nm offshore FL. Just don't want to see a C210 plastered on your windshield. Are you the same one who considers it a "clearance to go over 250 kts below 10,000' outside of Class B" when ATL approach tells you to keep the speed up? I haven't heard FLL or MIA use that wording before.

 

[Donsa320]

Curious on everyone's thoughts about the 12 miles being the limit. I understand that outside 12 miles is considered international waters but doesn't the FAA consider 3 miles the limit to their authority? And that is why Restricted Areas can only go up to 3 miles offshore before they have to be considered a Warning Area after that? Now, you can not go into a Restricted Area without permission but anyone can fly through a Warning Area at their own risk. Thus, would the 250 limit actually start after 3 miles instead of 12?

Yep, territorial waters only extended out to 3 miles off shore until the late 1980's when by international agreement they were extended out to 12 miles. We used to be able to do about 400 kts IAS down low in our "A" mode 727's. One of the MIA arrivals from the north was just over 3 miles off shore so it was a fun ride until the changeover to the 12 mile limit. And the banner tows were never that far off shore so please don't be alarmed.

As to what the FAA does with restricted vs warning areas I do not know. It would seem to me that if 12 miles out is US territory, then the FAA can restrict that airspace.

Comments?

~DC

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Beyond 12 miles you're in international airspace. Bottom line: anything goes. In a previous life, I ROUTINELY crossed the Atlantic and did not speak to a sole (psssst ... didn't want anyone to know we were there, had been there, or were coming). This is fairly routine.

By convention, however, ICAO was established and encourages all members to comply with its standard operating procedures in the interest of international aviation safety and security. To the maximum extent possible ... we did. But the bottom line is that you are in international airspace and anything legally goes.

 

[fly4free]

here is one for you

Looking for some legal input about offshore speed limits. If you are more than 12 miles offshore but on an arrival (such as those in S. FLA) are you required to be at or below 250kts out of 10,000? I know that class E only extends to 12 miles but it can include those areas required for seperation or as depicted (where it is depicted I'm not sure). I know that general pratice id as fast as you can till within 12 but is this really legal or just accepted?

Our POI believes that ATC is acting on behalf of the administrator and can ask for any speed at any altitude within his controlled airspace. The reg reads "Unless authorized by the administrator, no person shall operate ......"

We don't get asked very often but when they (ATC) do we go as fast as they want us to.

Fly

 

[atldc9]

Fact is, there are alot of GA trafic low level more than 12 nm offshore FL. Just don't want to see a C210 plastered on your windshield. Are you the same one who considers it a "clearance to go over 250 kts below 10,000' outside of Class B" when ATL approach tells you to keep the speed up? I haven't heard FLL or MIA use that wording before.

Nope. That one is cut and dried, just like the 12 mile rule. I just disagree with your calling of this very normal, everyday occurence 'a bunch of cowboys..being cool.'

Cool has nothing to do with it. What safe should should I fly? 100 knots, 150, 250?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Our POI believes that ATC is acting on behalf of the administrator and can ask for any speed at any altitude within his controlled airspace. The reg reads "Unless authorized by the administrator, no person shall operate ......"

We don't get asked very often but when they (ATC) do we go as fast as they want us to.

Fly

I would be VERY careful with this one. I think your POI is alone in his interpretation and this may pose a liability for you. Always my understanding that ATC cannot "clear" you to exceed 250 below 10,000 in FAA controlled airspace. Some military aircraft have waivers (T-38 and most fighters, for instance) to exceed 250 due to flight envelope considerations, but even they were not allowed to exceed their "waiver speed" below 10,000 simply because ATC made a request.

 

[cvsfly]

Nope. That one is cut and dried, just like the 12 mile rule. I just disagree with your calling of this very normal, everyday occurence 'a bunch of cowboys..being cool.'

Cool has nothing to do with it. What safe should should I fly? 100 knots, 150, 250?

Just reacting to the tone of some of these comments. Just because a regulation or lack there of lets you operate a certain way doesn't mean you should and just about every reg. is a compromise to some degree. Why do you think 250 kts is a limit below 10,000' in the US? Note of caution. I'll be taking a vacation to the Bahamas in a few weeks- look out! Although, we will be IFR, there are lots of VFR and FL controllers are usually too saturated to give you all advisories. When we are flying for the company in turbine equipment, we have enough TAs and RAs between IFRs down there as it is. Just give a little thought to the area you are flying in.

 

[canyonblue737]

I can be really scared now flying small planes to the Bahamas. A bunch of cowboys going as fast as they can at low altitude just because they think they can and its cool. Save it for above 10,000', please. There is enough mid-air potential in FL as it is.

If the intention was to keep it 250 or less below 10,000 in all situations it would be spelled out as such. Until such time barberpole is legal, normal, and encouraged while more than 12 miles off shore.