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Somethings to consider

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FR8DOG777

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Posts
360
Cleveland, OH – January 29, 2010 – Flight Options LLC today announced that it had reached a tentative agreement on a five-year contract with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Local 1108.
The tentative agreement is a comprehensive proposal that provides significant increases in compensation and benefits for all Flight Options pilots. After a short review period, the proposed contract will be presented to all pilots for formal ratification.
“One of our fundamental principles is that we believe employees are the foundation of a service company,” stated Flight Options CEO, Mike Silvestro. “This agreement demonstrates our commitment to that principle. Even in this difficult economic environment, our company has achieved a level of success that allows us to make this long-term commitment. I would like to thank the national and local members of the IBT and members of the Flight Options senior management team for working together to finalize this agreement.”


*Financial security cannot be assured by low wages. Mesa airlines entered chapter 11 on January 5, 2010 with the lowest paid pilot force of the regionals.

*Interest rates are at historical low in an effort to stimulate economic activity. The will soon be on the rise making our buying power less.

*There is absolutely no guarantee the company will ever be willing to share the fruits of our labors in 5-7 years after we rebuild this company by accepting low wages.

*This contract does absolutely nothing to level the playing field like our union has been touting they would for years.

*This Contract will build resentment with our peers and lower the bar for future pilots in this segment of the industry for years to come.

*The Virtual Bid System and Supplemental Pay are nothing more than smoke and mirrors and will not benefit one pilot.

*The 16+2 schedule will do nothing but prevent furloughees from an early recall. Don't think a t/a that is ratified will equate to furloughs? See Alaska Airlines recently ratified t/a.

*The only slight benefit to the long hours we work day in and day out are O.T. on day one and 14 hour day eights. They will continue to work us 112+ duty hour weeks long after this t/a is signed.

*If the company has any aspirations of ever selling another fractional share then they need a t/a approval more than we do.

*The length of this contract with the ammendable date is extremely long especially for a a first contract.

*While our union leader has invested great effort in achieving this t/a he is on here squashing every rational debate against this t/a. We appreciate your work mat, but the line pilots that towed the line for four years were a far easier target for management to fire than the president.

*It is not the pilots responsibility to solve managements problems. We fly more than our peers in the charter world and are paid far less. We are extremely behind our peers in the fractional world.

*It will be years before we see another t/a. Oh really? Are you sure the company can afford that? I'm willing to take that risk. Put the pressure back on the company because they obviously won't do it by themselves. They are already touting to the owners this is a five+ year deal. See above.

*The morale of the pilots will soon fall to even more dramatic lows after they realize what really happened to them. Then the depression of having to live like this for another five years will take its toll.

*The first officers are taking it in the shorts. Across the board this payscale is lower than the projected payscale at travel air and flight options in 1999! No that's not a typo. 1999 I still have my paperwork with the payscales.

For God's sakes people stand up for yourselves. This is the biggest putover job since D.B. Cooper.
 
I tend to agree with most of your points and it really is sad. Not sure if it will make any difference, because too many are tired of the fight and are willing to vote yes, just to be done... however, I'm voting NO.
 
*Financial security cannot be assured by low wages. Mesa airlines entered chapter 11 on January 5, 2010 with the lowest paid pilot force of the regionals.

If you're going to compare, keep it apple-to-apples. Other than the fact both companies provide air transportation there is no way to compare the two.

*Interest rates are at historical low in an effort to stimulate economic activity. The will soon be on the rise making our buying power less.

Some predict a deflationary period. While this will have it's own negative impact on the economy, our buying power in the near term would actually increase. Also, the gloom and doom Glenn Beck followers have been predicting a meteoric rise in interest rates for several years. It has yet to happen. When interest rates start to climb (and they will), I predict it will be at a very small rate of increase. My crystal ball is as clear as yours.

*There is absolutely no guarantee the company will ever be willing to share the fruits of our labors in 5-7 years after we rebuild this company by accepting low wages.

Beyond the guarantees in the TA, you're correct. But if you want to take that view, there are no guarantees in life. Get used to it.

*This contract does absolutely nothing to level the playing field like our union has been touting they would for years.

To quote your hero, Bill Clinton: "It's the economy, stupid".

*This Contract will build resentment with our peers and lower the bar for future pilots in this segment of the industry for years to come.

I'm convinced those of you who are fanatically opposed to this TA eagerly anticipate this phantom "resentment", and will be doing all you can to sow your seeds of discontent (you're the type that wants to be the first to say "I told you so" to everyone you see in the FBO's...). I just hope I'm not crewed with you anytime soon.

*The Virtual Bid System and Supplemental Pay are nothing more than smoke and mirrors and will not benefit one pilot.

I've spoken to several pilots who are going to be well positioned due to the VBS. I think it is a great clause in this contract and an excellent way to compensate those who have been stranded in their current seat for far too long. I will concede that the SPP is, at best, in incalculable unknown at this point.

*The 16+2 schedule will do nothing but prevent furloughees from an early recall. Don't think a t/a that is ratified will equate to furloughs? See Alaska Airlines recently ratified t/a.

How would you assure a 7-and-7 schedule without the 16+2 or some other form of flexible scheduling? (see NetJets). As far as the Alaska comparison goes, see my first response.

*The only slight benefit to the long hours we work day in and day out are O.T. on day one and 14 hour day eights. They will continue to work us 112+ duty hour weeks long after this t/a is signed.

Have you ever called fatigued? No? Why not? Oh, because you're afraid of retaliation by management. BTW, thanks to the efforts of your negotiating committee you will now be PROTECTED from punitive measures and retaliation when you have to call fatigue. I think fatigue calls are going to increase which will ultimately result in recalls. This may take a little time, but it will happen.

*If the company has any aspirations of ever selling another fractional share then they need a t/a approval more than we do.

Maybe. Here's a different viewpoint: if this TA isn't ratified management has a "Plan B" in place that will place this pilot group in a much worse position than we're in at present. There is no status quo in effect.

*The length of this contract with the ammendable date is extremely long especially for a a first contract.

I think L.H. did a great job of (repeatedly) explaining to you on the union board the position of the negotiating committee, and why the term of this contract was negotiated this way. I choose to trust the decision of not only my union leadership on this matter, but also the advice they received from a very experienced support team sitting with them in negotiations This is the best we can do - for now. You are certainly welcome to disagree with their assessment, but you were absent from the negotiating table (and likely absent from any other volunteer positions in the union)


*While our union leader has invested great effort in achieving this t/a he is on here squashing every rational debate against this t/a. We appreciate your work mat, but the line pilots that towed the line for four years were a far easier target for management to fire than the president.

You know this is B.S. You can come to this public board and continue to whine, but you know that the debate on the union board has been open, fair, and insightful.

*It is not the pilots responsibility to solve managements problems. We fly more than our peers in the charter world and are paid far less. We are extremely behind our peers in the fractional world.

There is one problem in particular that is not only management's problem, it's everyone's problem (let me spell it out for you again: ECONOMY. Our negotiation team could not have crafted or demanded a TA that would fix what the G8 cannot.

*It will be years before we see another t/a. Oh really? Are you sure the company can afford that? I'm willing to take that risk. Put the pressure back on the company because they obviously won't do it by themselves. They are already touting to the owners this is a five+ year deal. See above.

I think at least 50%+1 of our pilots are not the gambler you are.

*The morale of the pilots will soon fall to even more dramatic lows after they realize what really happened to them. Then the depression of having to live like this for another five years will take its toll.

Some of us prefer to take a more optimistic - and realistic - view (keep an eye on NJA. I hope I'm wrong, but it appears their pain may not be over). We're swimming upstream against a current no one could have ever imagined 4 years ago when this fight started. From that vantage point, I continue to be impressed with the TA our negotiating committee has achieved.

Further, I'd guess you're the type that won't be happy until you've done your part to diminish the morale of everyone you come into contact with. I'll bet you're a joy to fly with for 8 days.

*The first officers are taking it in the shorts. Across the board this payscale is lower than the projected payscale at travel air and flight options in 1999! No that's not a typo. 1999 I still have my paperwork with the payscales.

What? What do you mean projected? Obviously, whatever payscale you're referring to was something that never came to pass. Well, I was projected to be earning $100K a year in dividends/interest on my investments by 2010. Last I checked, I'm not close. I wonder what got in the way of THAT projection?

For God's sakes people stand up for yourselves. This is the biggest putover job since D.B. Cooper.

Exaggerate much?

Still voting YES.
 
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Profrac......you picked apart his entire post! The whole darn thing! You countered EVERYTHING! You guys are divided as much as Congress is. You know what that means........disaster.
 
How would you assure a 7-and-7 schedule without the 16+2 or some other form of flexible scheduling? (see NetJets). As far as the Alaska comparison goes, see my first response.

CitationAir is strictly a 7-and-7 operation. No flex schedule is needed they fill the gaps with OT.
 
Profrac......you picked apart his entire post! The whole darn thing! You countered EVERYTHING! You guys are divided as much as Congress is. You know what that means........disaster.

FR8DOGGY and I are divided on the TA. But the pilot group isn't. He and 991 are a small, but vocal minority. They don't like the answers they get on the union board, so they come over here and post their opposition using poor analogies and outright denial of certain facts. The truth is they're welcome to do that here OR on the union board. Every point they've made there has been countered. I'm welcome to counter them here - and will continue to do so - right up to March 31st.

In keeping with the thread title, I'm just providing "somethings" else to consider ;)
 
CitationAir is strictly a 7-and-7 operation. No flex schedule is needed they fill the gaps with OT.

How would you assure a 7-and-7 schedule without the 16+2 or some other form of flexible scheduling? (see NetJets). As far as the Alaska comparison goes, see my first response.

That's fine. I'd say OT is a form of flexible scheduling, wouldn't you? But unless the company can force you to do OT, they cannot count on the OT to fill those gaps. Hence, 16+2/Reserve/Flex scheduling. This type of scheduling allows the company to create a plan that assures proper coverage.

As an aside, I don't want to be forced to work more days than I do now. Our ratified contract will prevent this. More protections.
 
You can check the personal attacks at the door. I think you need to change your handle to prowhorefrac pilot, which is exactly what you have become. Can you in good conscience vote for this thing and effectively undercut corporate flight departments with the jetcards and the fractionals with our lower pay? Let's put some more good men and woman out of jobs just so we can wholesale our services. This thread is about exploring the possible outcomes of what a yes vote will entail. Nothing more, nothing less. That's what informed educated individuals do in a democracy. Our leader is asking us to sacrifice our services in hopes of grabbing a piece of the pie in five or more years. I personally think he is flying us in formation into a boxed canyon running out of airspeed and ideas. He is president, that job is subject to constructive criticism. If his skin isn't thick enough for the job than so be it. I didn't vote for Obama but that doesn't mean I can't criticize the policies and proposed legislature he is forcing down our throats. The company cannot afford 640,000 a month in charter for very long, that is unsustainable. Go ahead and vote yes, but get the heck out of the way for the rest of us who like hearing other perspectives from union airline pilots and union fractional pilots. And thanks for the broad assumptions of who you think I am and what I represent. I'm not going to be around to tell you I told you so and I definately don't listen or watch the uneducated mouthpiece Mr. Beck. My rational thinking leads me to believe we should be compensated more for the amount of work we do, the amount of responsibility we shoulder, the amount of risk and danger we incurr, and the amount of time away from our families. The economy wasn't the reason behind the netjets pilots contract, it was the determined pilot group that prevailed. Enough is enough. Congratulations for your yes vote out of fear. F$H and management kicked your butt. Don't drag the rest of us down.
 
I think you need to change your handle to prowhorefrac pilot, which is exactly what you have become.

Oh, Doggy! This is awesome, absolutely witty discourse you've chosen to engage in! :rolleyes:

Whatever. I fail to see where I've made this personal. If you're referring to my comments on morale I'm just calling it as I see it, which is through realistic (not rose-colored) glasses. Further, I believe that we as a pilot group are a much more optimistic bunch than you give us credit for. I, for one, choose not to share in your doomsday scenario.

My skin is thick enough to take the disagreement and opposing views. If you're who I think you are, I'm fairly certain yours is too. But some of your posts certainly don't appear that way, which makes no sense.
 
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ProFrac......your perspective is certainly OK...but when you shoot down 100% of what the opposition says, then I start to get worried. You seem to have very little agreement with those who oppose this TA. When 2 groups get THAT polarized, bad things always come.

Pay seems to be the biggest complaint I have seen. While I don't work with you guys, I agree that the pay that was negotiated SUCKS, and you are locking it in for what will probably be 8 years. A "yes" vote tells the country that your worth as a professional pilot isn't very high. I'm just sayin'......
 
Oh, and ProFrac.....you did kinda make a personal attack on this guy (even though you denied it). In fact, you made several of them.
 
ProFrac......your perspective is certainly OK...but when you shoot down 100% of what the opposition says, then I start to get worried. You seem to have very little agreement with those who oppose this TA. When 2 groups get THAT polarized, bad things always come.

Don't worry about us BTDI. We're big boys and know how to argue like adults.

Pay seems to be the biggest complaint I have seen. While I don't work with you guys, I agree that the pay that was negotiated SUCKS, and you are locking it in for what will probably be 8 years. A "yes" vote tells the country that your worth as a professional pilot isn't very high. I'm just sayin'......

You are at Avantair, correct? Or formerly of Avantair? Tell me, exactly what pay has YOUR pilot group negotiated from management, pay that they are now contractually obligated to pay you? I'm just sayin'....

Whatever you're being paid, it is at the whim of your management. Further it was given to you on the backs of the NJ pilots and the work they did amending their contract 5 years ago. I understand your concern that the pay bar may be lowered for those who do not have a contract. But I'm guessing you've not read our TA, either. This TA (our first, by the way, in case you need a reminder) has to be viewed in it's entirety. There is so much more to it than just compensation (which is an increase for every pilot, regardless of what others may be telling you), with important work rules and provisions that have been much too long in coming.

As one of our pilots said - who, by his own admission HATES this TA - We need to ratify this contract so that we can continue to fight another day. And the fight will go on - now, with work rules and protections to help our cause.
 
Profrac, with respect, we don't own this clown. Avantair parted ways with him almost a year ago, and since then he hasn't worked for any real aviation company. Every real Avantair pilot I have spoken to about your TA wishes you guys the best.
 
...I think at least 50%+1 of our pilots are not the gambler you are...

While that may or may not be true, I would say that a much greater than 50% are unsatisfied to very unsatisfied with the contract. While some may be voting yes anyways, they are just doing it because they are tired of the fight, not because they think it's good... Not exactly an overwhelming endorsement. I will be anxiously awaiting to hear what the count is on March 31st/April 1.
 
Pro....you guys certainly can argue like big boys...well....I thought that until I saw your Union Prez come here and make threats to those who oppose the TA. That being said......

I should have been a little more specific. The pay COMBINED with such a long lock-in by the Company is going to kill you guys. I have owned businesses, and I have worked for them. If I were the owner....I would have pushed the Contract Extension Clause VERY HARD, just like FLOPS Management did. That way I can lock you guys in to a lower payscale for a VERY long time. If I were the employee.....I would be giddy that I got "something" in a recession. Frac...I see both sides...but I totally understand what the Company is up to. 3 years max is all the Contract I would commit to. By that time the recession will be over (unless Obama borrows us into oblivion), and you will be in a great position to bargain again. Either way....good luck with it.

As far as negotioting with Avantair, I quit them last April during the recession. The pay didn't meet the promise. I was just told that union cards are about to be sent out there, but the Captains will mostly vote "no" because they are making "ok" money and the FO's will vote "yes" because they make less than garbagemen and cabinet makers. I have a strange feeling that is the climate at FLOPS too.
 
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Pro....you guys certainly can argue like big boys...well....I thought that until I saw your Union Prez come here and make threats to those who oppose the TA. That being said......

I should have been a little more specific. The pay COMBINED with such a long lock-in by the Company is going to kill you guys. I have owned businesses, and I have worked for them. If I were the owner....I would have pushed the Contract Extension Clause VERY HARD, just like FLOPS Management did. That way I can lock you guys in to a lower payscale for a VERY long time. If I were the employee.....I would be giddy that I got "something" in a recession. Frac...I see both sides...but I totally understand what the Company is up to. 3 years max is all the Contract I would commit to. By that time the recession will be over (unless Obama borrows us into oblivion), and you will be in a great position to bargain again. Either way....good luck with it.

As far as negotioting with Avantair, I quit them last April during the recession. The pay didn't meet the promise. I was just told that union cards are about to be sent out there, but the Captains will mostly vote "no" because they are making "ok" money and the FO's will vote "yes" because they make less than garbagemen and cabinet makers. I have a strange feeling that is the climate at FLOPS too.

...Yawn.
 
[ I was just told that union cards are about to be sent out there, but the Captains will mostly vote "no" because they are making "ok" money and the FO's will vote "yes" because they make less than garbagemen and cabinet makers. I have a strange feeling that is the climate at FLOPS too.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Options has any FO's....
 

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