Someone please help me with this.. :)

[Jbroey3]

Hello everyone, I have a question

I am an instrument rated, single engine land, private pilot. I have a friend who has just recently been signed off to solo in his aircraft.
If we were to go flying together, would It be okay to be PIC from the right seat? I am not giving any sort of formal instruction, however I would be PIC/ observer for the duration of the VFR flight and take corrective action given anything were to occur.

I did a quick research on this, but have not been able to find clearly an answer on this issue.

Am I allowed to legally fly/ride right seat as PIC in with the understanding that he is going to fly the aircraft?

This is what I found..

The portions in parenthesis are what im thinking may allow for me doing so, but am not completely sure.


91.109 : "FLight Instruction"; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests. (or rather flying with)


(2) b. No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless-
(1) "The other control seat is occupied by a saftey pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."
(2) "The saftey pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequetely supplements the vision of the saftey pilot;"

Thanks for any insight, info.. or help on this.

 

[hyper]

JB,

There are no FARs stating that you may only fly from the left seat. The facility from which you rent the airplane however, may not allow you to. Check the rental agreement as most will stipulate PIC in the left. Maybe they will allow you to get checked out from the right side.
If you are referring to your friend's airplane, the only consideration you'll have is the insurance company. He may want to check with them first. Obviously, it's a moot point if nothing were to happen inflight. But if you were to have some kind of incident or accident, there may be a clause in the policy requiring the PIC to be in the left seat.

Here are some excerpts off of Doc's webpage:


"A rated pilot (private pilot for argument’s sake) may allow a non-pilot friend to manipulate the flight controls of an airplane. For the sake of illustration, let’s assume the non-pilot is the sole manipulator for the entire flight.

The private pilot, who is responsible for the flight, is obviously acting as PIC. But, he/she cannot log PIC time, since that pilot would not meet any of the conditions stated in FAR 61.51(e) required to log PIC time. In fact, the private pilot does not meet any other requirement to log time. Clearly, the non-pilot has no time-logging privileges. So, in this case, nobody logs flight time."

"A non-instrument-rated private pilot (but rated in the aircraft category and class) flies with another private pilot who is instrument rated, on an IFR flight plan in IMC conditions. The non-IFR pilot manipulates the flight controls for the entire flight. The IFR pilot acts as PIC, and is required to be the PIC since he/she is the only pilot appropriately rated to act as PIC under IFR, but logs no flight time. Why?
The instrument-rated pilot did not manipulate the flight controls and is not acting as PIC of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

The non-IFR pilot may log PIC time for the entire flight since he/she was the sole manipulator of the flight controls of an aircraft for which he/she is rated."

Obviously in your case, the student pilot would not be allowed to log PIC under 61.51(e)(4)

Under 61.51(g)(1) Only the student may log instrument time.

Looks like bottom line is: Student logs instrument time only and you log nothing.

Confused yet?
check this out

 

[Jbroey3]

Thank you VERY much really it means alot.. thanks for the help and clearification as well as the link.



-=Jbroey3=-

 

[hyper]

Anytime

 

[eriknorth]

I have debated this question myself. It wasn't clear if this was part of your question, but in regards to what the student pilot can do, take a look at 61.89 and notice that it begins with "(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft (1) that is carrying a passenger." I gather from this that the student pilot cannot log time at all since he can't act as PIC or solo (since the FARs specifically state that solo time can only be logged when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
Just a thought.

 

[Goffer]

To call it as I see it, you'd both log nothing in that situation. If he was really itching to fly in his own a/c I'd fly in the left seat and let him do some flying from the right seat. Then insurance comes into play. Otherwise I'd just advise him to just go up with his instructor and wait for the private to come around. Be careful, sounds like a news headline to me, "Student Pilot Crashes when Private Pilot Attempts to Instruct." Remember always follow the golden rule, "CYA".

 

[Goffer]

I just read my post and I'd like to add another thing. I'm not in anyway trying to insult your flying ability. The instrument rating was definitely one of the rating that take the most discipline and work. Not only from my experience, but I've also heard that from people far more accomplished than I am now.

 

[DLF8108]

NO is the correct answer.

Occupied seat is IRRELEVANT

FAR 61.89
(a) ...may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(1) That is carrying a passenger. (When the student pilot is flying & has his hands on the controls, if you are not a CFI doing instruction...you can be only one other thing...A PASSENGER!

Student pilots can ONLY fly (manipulate the controls) under two conditions:
1.) Instruction from a CFI on board
2.) authorized Solo

Nothing prevents YOU from flying with the student pilot on board as long as he doesn't touch the controls.

Ask the experts
- A CFI or FSDO rep
- Your insurance company
- Your insurance company's aviation lawyer

 

[tarp]

Jbroey3,

You asked - "Am I allowed to legally fly/ride right seat as PIC in with the understanding that he is going to fly the aircraft?"

Go to FAR 1 and read the definitions of "Operate" and "Pilot-in-command". You can include 91.3 and 91.13 in your reading.

Can you legally fly and be PIC from the right seat of an aircraft? Absolutely.

Can you decide to let an otherwise untrained person manipulate the controls of the airplane that you are PIC of? Sure, with the caveat that you have to keep that person from breaking rules that you would not break yourself and that you are reasonably assured that you are not going to enter the world of 91.13 (Careless and reckless).

Will anybody be able to log anything? You can only log the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time. The student can NOT log any time since he/she can NOT have a passenger and be PIC.

Now for the tricky stuff - Insurance, FBO's, club rules, etc. A lot of non-FAA types create rules that you also have to dance around. Right seat check outs might be required by some other authority for you to fly from the right side (without a CFI rating). You said "his" airplane - is it really "his"? Or is it an FBO plane, is it a club plane?

Should you learn to fly from the right side? Why not? But I wouldn't just go do it with the student on the first attempt. Some folks get a case of the "back-handed's" where the left and right hands don't work so well doing the opposite job.

How about landings and takeoffs? Although you may not have thought of your CFI as being courageous, what about letting a non-rated person land a plane that you are "responsible" for? Are you that comfortable with your friend? If you had a wreck, do you think the FAA would consider your decision to let a non-rated person land an airplane as "careless and reckless"? Hmmmm.

You also had one distracting item at the end of your post. FAR's about safety pilot. Your "friend" as a non-rated pilot absolutely can NOT be your safety pilot (nor would you want this). You CAN be his safety pilot if you are brave enough to go through the trials of a brand new pilot learning to fly on the six pack. The one thing I will say about safety pilots is that I am VERY particular about who will safety pilot for me. That person is going to be a "safety" pilot - eyes scanning outside for potential threats. My safety pilot won't be my safety pilot for very long if his/her eyes are down on the CDI tapping the glass like a CFI. Most CFII's learn that inside/outside scan by "the one that went whizzing by" (and you all know what I mean).

As to your decision to "fly" with your friend. After you get past all the insurance companies and other rules and find that you can indeed do this - why not? It will make you a better pilot and allow the "student" to get some of your insight as an already rated pilot. I'd set some ground rules about making the landings (as in you're making 'em and he's watching).

The "not being able to log anything" is going to make this very expensive "play" time - all buck, no bang - that usually cuts down the amount of this kind of flying that people attempt. Heck, for the extra $35, your friend might as well have the CFI sitting there and making it loggable.

Be safe.

 

[TXCAP4228]

NO is the correct answer.

Occupied seat is IRRELEVANT

FAR 61.89
(a) ...may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(1) That is carrying a passenger. (When the student pilot is flying & has his hands on the controls, if you are not a CFI doing instruction...you can be only one other thing...A PASSENGER!

Student pilots can ONLY fly (manipulate the controls) under two conditions:
1.) Instruction from a CFI on board
2.) authorized Solo

Nothing prevents YOU from flying with the student pilot on board as long as he doesn't touch the controls.

Ask the experts
- A CFI or FSDO rep
- Your insurance company
- Your insurance company's aviation lawyer

DLF, there is a difference bewteen letting someone fly and that person acting as PIC. Give me a break. What you're saying is that no one can ever touch any controls in an airplane unless they are rated current. Not.

With your logic, when I take friends flying with me and let them fly for a few minutes we are violating the FARs. That's ridiculous.