Soft on ALPA

[agonyairfo]

It still seems that some feel that ALPA is doing a fine job.

1.I dont give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about ALPA medical, legal, insurance, financial or any other service they provide. I have never used one of them. It's nice to have those perhipral service available. However, ALPA is supposed to be a union. First and foremost protecting jobs. They have failed miserably at that.
2.Duane Woerth is a liar.
3.Who cares if ALPA "holds up the bar" when they let the bottom drop out at so many other airlines. Look at the hosing going on at Allegheny and Piedmont. Ever remember even reading a short paragraph on the last page about whats going on there in "AIRLINE PILOT". Nope. Another black eye for alpa. They continue the charade of helping the regionals.
Read flying the line, which ironically enough is given to all new hires by alpa. Those founding members would have strung Woerth up.

 

[Tony Soprano]

Time for the RJDC

I'm still appalled at what they did at CCAir. And it's just the beginning of the Regional Airline Pilot's Armegeddon.

How bout out out there Ex-Chicken Chicken Drivers you know I'm talking about.

 

[Catbird]

You better watch it. TONY C the self appointed English proctor will commence his English lesson. On the other hand he might be out of town, believe Duane and the boy's have requested his feisty services in Herndon. I wonder if he forgot his kneepads?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is ALPA (or any union) a resource or a service?

It is difficult to conduct the business of the Association when 90% of its members refuse to pick up the tools and go to work. Heck, before they can use the tools, they need to know HOW to use them....

Don't like Duane? Get rid of him. ALPA is more democratic than the USA itself.

The classic complaint.. "ALPA never did jack for me...."
The right answer.. "No, you never did anything for yourself"
Uneducated ALPA pilots playing golf on thier days off while peer pilots volunteer thier days off to represent them...... Cute.

Why is it ALPA volunteers only hear from pilots when their wallet gets hit?

Look in the Mirror.

 

[Catbird]

"Don't like Duane? Get rid of him. ALPA is more democratic than the USA itself."

Rez O its Monday morning, a little early to be hitting the crack pipe. Your statement concerning ALPA are Classic ALPA babbling heard it for 20 years. Reality is that when you do become involved and participate it becomes very evident that the corruption and lack of integrity at the top levels is firmly established. When the leader is a habitual liar, his "cabinet" accepts the lack of integrity and performs similar. When the superior class of membership desires a change of leadership, Worthless will be removed, until then he will continue the doctrine of Pattern Bargaining with Regional pilots careers without representation. There is 2 groups of pilots who have taken a active leadership role in regard to ALPA's behavior, the full description can be accessed below.

http://www.pilots4fair.freeservers.com/

http://www.rjdefense.com/

Either one of the organizations will assist you with a complete education concerning ALPA's representation actions. After a review of the above groups websites I would suggest another look in the mirror.

I fully expect the teachers assistant TONY C to submit his usual babbling. A true ALPA National disciple can continue performing with bloody knee's after a vigorous Herndon caucusing session.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Catbird,

What took you so long? Dial up?

 

[acaTerry]

What is most amusing is how Woerth blames ALL of todays pilot issues on Bush and his administartion. However, when challenged for specific and hard evidence of how it all falls on the White House, he fails to respond.

 

[ACAFACVG]

What is most amusing is how Woerth blames ALL of todays pilot issues on Bush and his administartion. However, when challenged for specific and hard evidence of how it all falls on the White House, he fails to respond.

That's because Sweeney and the boys at the AFL/CIO will break his knees if he doesn't blame everything on Bush and his adminstration and see Kerry and the Dems as the savior of all pilots.

A few years ago one of the funniest things I have ever seen was Woerth standing on a stage with his AFL/CIO brethren in Seattle, WA at a WTO meeting (same one where they had all the riots). He was railing against "evil international businessmen" that are destroying the world. WTF?? He's a 747 Captain........what the hell does he think he is flying between Asia and the US every trip?!?!?!? Nuns and Boy Scouts? If not for these "evil" businessmen filling his 747 he wouldn't have a job.......but unfortunately he doesn't get that.......or a lot of things that will end up costing ALPA dearly in the end.........

 

[Mel Sharples]

I dont give a **CENSORED** about ALPA medical, legal, insurance, financial or any other service they provide. I have never used one of them.

If you ever have to use them (especially the medical office), you'll feel differently. Trust me. Those guys are worth every penny.

I'm not here to rail on the job side of things or defend ALPA's point of view. But those benefits can mean more to you than you will ever know.

 

[Catbird]

Rez O- Sorry the replies have taken so long. I was lining the Kitty Litter Box with the ALPA By Laws.

 

[agonyairfo]

Is ALPA (or any union) a resource or a service?


(The classic complaint.. "ALPA never did jack for me...."
The right answer.. "No, you never did anything for yourself"
Uneducated ALPA pilots playing golf on thier days off while peer pilots volunteer thier days off to represent them...... Cute.

Why is it ALPA volunteers only hear from pilots when their wallet gets hit?)

I agree with your sentiment 100%. You dont have the right to complain if you havent done jack about your situation. However, your talking about local ALPA volunteers. I am talking about ALPA national. My hat is off to the local MEC guys at every company. Some do a better job than others.
I'm afraid that I am not in a position to change top ALPA "management" from the inside.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hmmm... i wonder how many thousands of "regional" pilots are still furloughed as a result of ALPA's evil policies. Can someone please post the number?

 

[Catbird]

23 at last count, told ALPA to shove it. All moved to LCC's and spread the word everyday of the Corruption. Here's two groups that are supported by professional pilots to stop ALPA corruption. Of course if your current situation is such that your income is dependent upon ALPA flight pay loss a special donation will be noted.

http://www.rjdefense.com/index.html

http://www.pilots4fair.freeservers.com/

 

[Freight Dog]

23 furloughed as a result of ALPA's evil policies?

Hmmm... multiply that by 100 and you'll have an approximate number of furloughees at UAL alone...

ALPA evil policies? Sorry sir, but too many current CRJ captains are only there because they replaced mainline flying. Why is mainline replaced? Because you sir fly as a jet captain for less than I do as an FO. Is it wrong of me trying to protect my job? I don't think so... Personally, I'd rather see you on my side of the fence than the other way around, but you can rest assured that I will try to protect myself against you lowballing me and my flying.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Hold the phone here,
RJ pilots 'replaced' mainline flying. Is that what your are saying??
Last I heard, the owner of the flying made those decisions. And it isn't the 'RJ' pilots. 'RJ' pilots are handed a bid with trips on it and they bid from those. I don't recall seeing anything about them replacing mainline flying. Period.

 

[B190Captain]

Here's a question. Who's best interest does ALPA serve? The mainline or the regional? How can they serve both if one is owned by another?

Don't get me wrong but if I was a mainline pilot for any carrier such as Delta or American I would not mind at all paying my dues but if I am represented by the same union at a regional level who do you think get's the sh!t contracts? Some say these regionals get these sh!t contracts because they have a weak MEC. But that MEC should be backed and guided by the union they are a part of.

What do they say to these MEC folks, "Here's the ball now run with it?"

I am in no way, shape or form anti-union, I am just curious as to why regional after regional agree to sh!t pay and work rules and ALPA seems to stand by and let it happen.


Just curious.

Fly Safe.

 

[Freight Dog]

Yes ATR, that's what I'm saying. ORD-DFW flown by a CRJ? PHX-MEM flown by a CRJ? LAX-SFO flown by a CRJ? How about EWR-OKC? How about DFW - SNA and DFW - OAK?

And yes, you are right, the "owner" i.e. the company did it. I look at it the same way I look at calling my credit card company and ending up talking to somebody in India. An American job got outsourced overseas to India where the workers get paid peanuts. It's the same in our industry. Where you used to fly in a 737 or a MD80, now you get 2-3 RJ's, and you can't get a seat because they are always oversold. Now, a 737 or MD80 pilot is furloughed, while you fly his route and hire more cheap labor to replace the mainline pilot. Works great for you, but sucks for mainline.

So now, a mainline pilot wants to protect his job from being outsourced by putting scope in place and other measures to protect himself from being on the street, and now he's supposedly harming a regional pilot and he gets sued, called a crook, etc.

I wonder if India is gonna do the same thing if/when our outsourced jobs start coming back to the U.S.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Freightdog

And yes, you are right, the "owner" i.e. the company did it. I look at it the same way I look at calling my credit card company and ending up talking to somebody in India. An American job got outsourced overseas to India where the workers get paid peanuts. It's the same in our industry. Where you used to fly in a 737 or a MD80, now you get 2-3 RJ's, and you can't get a seat because they are always oversold. Now, a 737 or MD80 pilot is furloughed, while you fly his route and hire more cheap labor to replace the mainline pilot. Works great for you, but sucks for mainline.

Why do you suppose this is happening. It is NOT because RJ pilots will do it cheaper. What are your rates for the RJ? Thought so. It is because of the advent of LCC's such as Jet Blue, Airtran, and other mainline carriers that fly YOUR size aircraft for the lower pay. Management has no way to compete with these guys unless they use similar work rules and pay.

So now, a mainline pilot wants to protect his job from being outsourced by putting scope in place and other measures to protect himself from being on the street, and now he's supposedly harming a regional pilot and he gets sued, called a crook, etc.

When you put those restrictive measures in place you are FORCING management to find ways to make a profit since you have restricted them from right sizing aircraft due to A/C size restrictions. Simply saying that the regionals can only fly up to 50 seaters and you fly 140 seaters and greater does not fix a thing. You should have all of the jets with competitive pay scales on your contract. ALPA has specifically stopped this from happening due to pride, arogance, or whatever?
Your own scope as it is written and followed today is your own enemy. You need to be thinking about competing with, the LCC's out there and not worried so much about the slime at the regionals. Then you might see the forest behind that tree.
P.S. Although I do not agree with nor do I support the RJDC, I do know that they are not suing YOU, they are suing ALPA.

 

[Freight Dog]

?

Why do you suppose this is happening. It is NOT because RJ pilots will do it cheaper. What are your rates for the RJ? Thought so. It is because of the advent of LCC's such as Jet Blue, Airtran, and other mainline carriers that fly YOUR size aircraft for the lower pay. Management has no way to compete with these guys unless they use similar work rules and pay.

Funny you should mention LCC's, and don't mention the most successful LCC in the country - SWA. Did you know that SWA has some of the highest pay in the industry? Yet, they're the ones who started this whole LCC craze. Blows your pay and work rules argument right out of the water.

When you put those restrictive measures in place you are FORCING management to find ways to make a profit since you have restricted them from right sizing aircraft due to A/C size restrictions. Simply saying that the regionals can only fly up to 50 seaters and you fly 140 seaters and greater does not fix a thing.

I don't put those restrictions up there. A pilot group proposes and the management AGREES to those terms. You can't tell me that putting 3 RJ's within an hour is "right-sizing the market" when in fact it's nothing more than pure B.S. going for cheaper labor. That's exactly why you'll never fly a 140 seat airplane at a regional - you'll do it for peanuts.

You should have all of the jets with competitive pay scales on your contract. ALPA has specifically stopped this from happening due to pride, arogance, or whatever?

Water under the bridge although I completely agree wth you here. ALPA should have never allowed RJ's on the regional property.

Your own scope as it is written and followed today is your own enemy. You need to be thinking about competing with, the LCC's out there and not worried so much about the slime at the regionals. Then you might see the forest behind that tree.

Once again, LCC's weapon is not low labor costs as that's the biggest urban legend around. Take a look at payscales at other majors and compare them to LCC's. With a few exceptions, they're on par with LCC's, yet the majors are losing money while your LCC's are making money. Has nothing to do with labor costs... but it ALL has to do with having smart management. I guarantee you, you put some jackasses like Siegel and his cronies in charge of Airtran or SWA or JetBlue, and those airlines will disappear so fast, it would make your head spin. LCC's on the other hand generally have AWESOME management teams, and that's why they are profitable and they pay a comparable pay to majors. What a concept - Smart management = profitable and successful airline!


P.S. Although I do not agree with nor do I support the RJDC, I do know that they are not suing YOU, they are suing ALPA.

Tell me, how are you NOT agreeing with RJDC with your arguments in this post? You just posted their drivel...

By the way, you're right they're not suing me.. they're suing my union because a mainline pilot wants to protect his job.

 

[igneousy2]

Re: Freightdog

And yes, you are right, the "owner" i.e. the company did it.

Actually, mainline pilots don't have anyone to blame but themselves.

The RJ problem is just a continuation of the "turbo-prop problem". When the turbo-props starting getting bigger and faster i.e. SF340, DHC-8, ATR, etc. main line airlines needed to acquire turbo-props to help feed their newly invented mega-hubs. Every major airline pilot group could have insisted that they fly every airplane that their airline controlled or owned.

However, these were mostly ex-military types, most of whom have never touched a condition-lever never-mind actually having a desire to fly a prop-job. They said "DFW-ACT (Waco), never mind...we are real pilots...go ahead and get some other smuck to do those...maybe you can find some old flight instructors to do those runs."

Scope clauses were then constructed to limit the size of turbo-props, 50 seats, 70 seats...nobody ever anticipated that they could make an economical 50 seat JET airliner. When the RJ's first came out, they fit under most airlines current existing scope clauses.

Mainline pilots never gave a rat's ass about the working conditions at their regionals. They could have insisted in their scopes some minimum standards, work rules, retirement, etc....nah, who cares.

Every major airline has had some opportunities where they were bargaining from a position of power, where they could have insisted regional pilots be incorporated into their seniority lists and stopped the madness right then and their. Every major airline group balked at the opportunity. Not even being bashful in saying that they didn't want to because major airline pilots were BETTER than regional airline pilots.

So developed two classes of pilots, regional pilots, who were glad they were making more than the $5 a flight hour they were getting flight instructing, and major airline pilots making more in an hour than many regional pilots make on a 3 day trip.

Then came the RJ's, they fit under the scopes because most were based on seat capacity.

Airlines didn't even need permission to fly them. They all went to their regionals who's captains were all scraping by making $36 an hour...they said you can fly these nice shiny jets, go fast, stay cool on hot summer days...and we'll pay you $50 an hour. They didn't have to ask twice.

As RJ fleets grew...mainline pilots began to take notice.

By this time, RJ's are highly profitable for the airlines...even more so then their mainlines in many cases.

So now these mainline pilots go whining to management saying it's not fair, blah, blah, blah. Now they don't have nearly the negotiating leverage they had just 3-4 years prior, now the best they can hope for is to limit the RJ expansion. Now most major airlines wouldn't even consider seniority list merger plans where most probably would have 6 years ago. Many mainlines have offered to fly the RJ's (yet, not one has offered to fly turbo-props till this day)...but why SHOULD the airlines give it to them.


The short answer as to "why?" is simply...pride!

So do I feel "sorry" for mainline pilots...NO

Do I sympathize with their cause....NO

Mainline pilots don't have to look far for someone to blame in this "mess".

For years regionals have been BEGGING to get on the seniority list of their majors...if things keep going the way they have been, major airline pilots will start begging to be on their regionals lists.

If I'm ever at a regional where this happens I will suggest that we kindly offer, what APA said was their BEST offer to eagle pilots just a couple of years ago...STAPLED to the bottom.


That was at least .04 cents worth

Later