Skywest or Xjet

[TGT]

These two airlines seem to be hiring the most as of lately. Which airline is best suited for the near future. I probably would have said Xjet, however just a couple of days ago, CAL is now asking for $500 million in concessions. Just wanted some opinions.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I'd go with the one that has a domicile where you want to live. I'm not sure about XJet but SkyWest does not pay during training so you'd need to survive for a couple of months without income.

 

[Who Dey]

Both are good companies. Think about bases and of course union versus non-union. Also just because Cal wants concessions from mainline doesn't mean anything for Xjet pay. Skywest feeds for bankrupt company and a company who got concession awhile ago. I don't think those should be factors in your decision because all large jet operators now have asked or gotten concessions. Both Xjet and Skywest will do fine in the near future. Pretty much do you want a base in the East or the West?

I almost forgot Xjet gives you per diem while in training. Also you should probably look over both companies work rules and pay.

 

[blackbox]

I would choose Skywest, because I want to stay on the west coast. Also its the tail end of XJT hiring spree, tho no one knows when it will end, I've heard rumors that people in the 05 class might sit reserves for 2 years, but then again I also hear CAL is recalling a lot of their pilots and a lot of upgades are happening at XJT.

Skywest doesnt pay during training, but they do pay for hotel, i think. Can someone back me up on that one??? XJT pays for your hotel, double occupany, and they give you per diem, which is around $1500, and they give it to you about the second week of training.

I overheard a CAL pilot talking about his company wanting concessions. 10 or 15 percent is what they were asking for. I think they asked only for a small cut because they think the pilots would be willing to give it up as opposed to a 33% ct the other airlines are asking for. But he mentioned that the pilots arent having it because CAL plans on buying 15 757s from Boeing (which they got back from ATA).


good luck,
Box

 

[Dave Benjamin]

What's a "Morman" anyway? I'm familiar with Mormons since they are large religious group. Never heard of a "Morman" though. Is this something new?

I think "Propsarebest" has to yell because he has spent too much time in the mighty EMB.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Im still confused...Whats a "Morman"? I know what a Mormon is, but "morman", im not sure.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Dave was trying to tell you in a nice way you need to learn how to spell "MORMON" before casting stones around. (Hint, "Morman" is not the correct way)

 

[banned username 1]

Ladies and gentlemen. On various parts of the board, we see instances of some members complaining about the moderators exercising too much censorship over posts. Over the years, I've worked with this board and seen it evolve. One thing that's never changed has been the testosterone-charged, ego-driven, accomplish-the-mission, win-at-all-costs nature of posts that typify pilots in general.

I'd just say that if you want LESS moderator intervention. Please SELF-MODERATE yourselves at least a little.

Thanks,
UAL78

Addendum:
I was messaged by a participant who thought that posts were offensive to members of the LDS Church. I will post my reply publically so that you may better understand what goes on in Moderationville.

UAL78

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am trying to see the patently offensive nature of any of these posts. I am not a LDS so perhaps I don't see it because of that. The first mention of "Mormans" was interpreted by me to mean that they either hired LDS primarily or you would be living in Utah. What do you think? I sometimes leave things on the board to demonstrate someone's stupidity- in this case, the spelling of Mormons. It took awhile before somebody picked up on it but now the guy has to be a little chagrinned.

After that, has it degenerated into something ugly regarding members of the LDS church? I'm not detecting the heat. Are you? Help me out.

Doing what you want me to do is along the lines of what posters have been complaining about for awhile- overzealous use of punitive measures, i.e. the penalty box. It's hard to be consistent when everybody who reports an offensive (to them) post wants a certain punishment and wants it now.

Even the moderators don't see things equally. Some do things for posts that I have passed on and vice-versa. Perhaps one of the other guys will see things differently than I do, but in this particular case, my sense is to do nothing more than I have done already.

UAL78

Note: I shall be posting my response to you on the string. It will not have your identity within it. It's my hope that the readers will gain a little insight into the "policing" of the board.

 

[psysicx]

Actually the correct term Latter day saints.Mormons is just from the book of mormon.

 

[Rogue5]

I am not Mormon, though I AM a SkyWest pilot so perhaps that has led me to care a little more about this trash talk than most of the other crap that is slung around this board.

I do, in general, agree with the moderator that most often it is best to give someone enough rope to hang themselves, though on flightinfo it seems that most often the voices of the thoughtful and helpful are drowned out by the immature and those whose "courage" stems from their hidden identity.

It saddens me when a potentially informative and helpful forum such as this one sometimes appears to be is cheapened by those who rant the loudest and talk the most trash. The original post was someone who was looking for guidance from more experience pilots. How quickly it degenerated into trash.

I guess that is the double-edge sword of free speech, although I doubt these statements would be made if one had to be held accountable for them, face to face.

Aviation is a small world: Who knows? Some day perhaps we will meet on an overnight. Perhaps on an interview. These things have a way of making themselves known...

R5

 

[Tooslow]

Express is the place to go!

I would rather fly for an airline that is not bk, and a judge just made it harder for them to recover..

Huge movement over at Express, some 65 upgrades in Jan alone. Cal is recalling at full steam, taking everybody and then some, attrition and over 30% of mainline pilots retiring in the next fours, 7E7 orders and maybe a new flow-through........where would you go? New hires are being told 2 year upgrade.....reserve is 2-3 months.....they pay you $1,465 tax free money and a hotel for training........Good Luck. Oh yeh,, 25 more xrs being delivered this year with and additional 100 options........We are going to have over 3,000 pilots by March or April.......and you don't have to give up your recall rights like Skywest!

 

[COEX-FO]

I would rather fly for an airline that is not bk, and a judge just made it harder for them to recover..

Huge movement over at Express, some 65 upgrades in Jan alone. Cal is recalling at full steam, taking everybody and then some, attrition and over 30% of mainline pilots retiring in the next fours, 7E7 orders and maybe a new flow-through........where would you go? New hires are being told 2 year upgrade.....reserve is 2-3 months.....they pay you $1,465 tax free money and a hotel for training........Good Luck. Oh yeh,, 25 more xrs being delivered this year with and additional 100 options........We are going to have over 3,000 pilots by 2006.......and you don't have to give up your recall rights like Skywest!

TooSlow is correct with all the above except that we have 2800 on the list already so I expect to see 3000 a lot sooner than 2006!

I don' know if you have offers from both airlines but the rule is to accept the first offer!! Bird in the hand and all that! So IF you have been offered a pilot position at Skywest and XJT, great! If not, take the offer from the one you have. If you offers from neither, then it's a moot point, you need to get hired first before you have to decide.

 

[Ben Dover]

Here's the deal. Unless you have a crystal ball, you are wasting your time trying to analyze the future of SkyWest or Expressjets major partners. Delta, United, and Continental ALL face very serious challenges. So start looking at concrete issues that you can determine rather than trying to divine the unknowable about their respective major partners.

Here, I'll get you started:
1. SkyWest has better bases. (Unless you're from IAH, CLE, or EWR and happen to believe otherwise.)

2. Firm contract vs. loose policy manual. Expressjet has a new contract, with some nice improvements over the last one. It is difficult to compare the Expressjet contract with SkyWest because at SkyWest there IS no contract. The net affect of this can be both good and bad. More liberal interpretation of SkyWest policy manual by the company means you can get hoses. Yet, since the company isn't bound by contract they have the flexibility to help you out; and occasionally do.

3. Reserve work rules at Expressjet are flat out better than SkyWest. Period, end of discussion.

4. I believe SkyWest still has higher hourly rates than Expressjet. But Expressjet promises the largest year end w-2 based on work rules. So, until a full calendar year is up, we won't really know how pay compares.

5. Culture. Quite different at both companies. SkyWest (non-union) has kind of an unwritten culture that says, you be good to the company, and the company will be good to you. Expressjet (union) is more formal and less personal in it's approach to one's employment status.

 

[hotwing]

Jan. 6, 2005, 11:33PM

Continental says it could run out of cash
$500 million in wage cuts being sought
By BILL HENSEL JR.
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

Continental Airlines warned Thursday it could run out of cash if employees don't agree to $500 million in wage reductions by the end of February.

ADVERTISEMENT

The revelation, made in a filing with federal regulators, comes as the carrier is negotiating with employee groups.

"If we do not obtain the $500 million in annual reductions, we may be forced, like many of our struggling competitors, to reduce our fleet, furlough more employees and obtain larger wage and benefit reductions," Continental said.

It could also potentially lose customers and revenue as a result, the carrier added.

Shares of Houston-based Continental fell 84 cents Thursday, or 7.5 percent, closing at $10.37 per share in trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

Continental warned in the filing of having "inadequate liquidity." Under current market conditions, it expects to lose hundreds of millions of dollars in 2005 without the cost cuts.

Continental has about $1.45 billion in cash on hand, but that isn't considered a large number for a major airline. The carrier said it has $984 million in debt and pension payments due in 2005 — $500 million more than it had to pay in 2004.

Calyon Securities analyst Ray Neidl said Continental's cash levels are only a little above "minimum safety levels" for an airline of its size.

"If it gets below $1.2 billion, I really become concerned," Neidl said. "And then we are entering the slow winter season."

Continental said employee concessions made or proposed by competing airlines have put it a position of having higher wages and benefits, comparatively.

Until others began seeking and getting employee concessions, Continental was largely viewed as having a leaner and more efficient operation than many competitors.

Thursday, leaders of Continental's pilot union met to discuss the concessions the carrier is seeking. Spokesman Jim Moody said no decision had yet been made.

The nation's airline industry has been losing money for the past several years. The situation was greatly exacerbated by the 2001 terrorist attacks and the SARS outbreak. The war with Iraq and spiraling fuel costs have helped push the industry's losses past $25 billion.

Continental said without reducing pay and benefits and a reasonable prospect of future profitability, it believes its ability to get additional financing would be "uncertain."

Last week, Continental said it planned to order 10 Boeing "Dreamliner" aircraft and accelerate delivery of other Boeing aircraft. The carrier said in the filing Thursday that without the reductions, it would not expect its board of directors to approve delivery of the additional Boeing aircraft.

Continental has already announced $22 million in concessions from reservations and food services employees, and $48 million from management and clerical employees. Those employees aren't represented by unions.

Neidl characterized Continental's regulatory filing Thursday as being more straightforward than previous filings on the issue of concessions. "They wanted to get the word out," he said. "This should reinforce what they are trying to do."

[email protected]

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Jan. 6, 2005, 11:33PM

Continental says it could run out of cash
$500 million in wage cuts being sought
By BILL HENSEL JR.
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

[email protected]

Then there is United a Skywest partner in bankruptcy and has been for about 2 yrs.

Then there is Delta a SKywest partner that has said some very similar things about two-three months ago during concessionary negotiations.

Whats your point hotwing?

 

[hotwing]

The point is, the industry is in a huge amount of turmoil and changing daily... They are ALL going through this... It is not one, it is not two, they are ALL having to deal with this stuff... I never thought that I would see this...

I can say that SKYW is a great place with GREAT people. I can also say that XJT is a great place too...

Now, CAL is starting to move into the same territory as the other legacy carriers... (point)

 

[generaltso]

I don't think CAL is hurting. I think it is obvious they released that press release because they need to play catch up in the race to the bottom.

 

[Nova]

TooSlow is correct with all the above except that we have 2800 on the list already so I expect to see 3000 a lot sooner than 2006!

Where did you get that number? The last published seniority list from 10/04 had just less than 2500 pilots on the list. Since then I believe we only grew by only a handful as we're still losing quite a few pilots off the top. The latest bid packets only show 2400 pilots eligable to bid. Add to that the pilots in the training pipeline and that puts us somewhere still in the vicinity of 2500 pilots.

We might be hiring like crazy but we're not growing much.

 

[rattler]

X-Jet is a good company, good people and good place to work. New contract is coming together, only minor transitional problems and lots of pay claims. The only downsides compared to SkyWest are the bases. If you haven't noticed I think CAL chose the 3 biggest S holes in the US for hubs, however there are nice places to live near by, or you can commute.

The biggest difference I can see is being union or non union. I know for alot of people that have never worked for an airline before, there isn't really an understanding as to why having representation is important. But trust me this is huge.

 

[rattler]

TooSlow is correct with all the above except that we have 2800 on the list already so I expect to see 3000 a lot sooner than 2006!

I heard that same thing straight from Jim Nides mouth back in Feb., but he also said he expected to have that number by the end of 2004. I'm not sure what these extra 500 pilots were supposed to fly, but what do I know.

 

[Splert]

Xjet has much better work rules that SkyWest. Our bases are so spread out that our layover times are 14-36 hours. 4 day trips with 8 legs and 2 legs and 2 legs then 8 legs is common place. With Xjet’s concentrated flying, out of the hub then in to the hub and your done, your trips will be more a efficient use of your time.

Better work rules and more efficient use of your time. Xjet is a clear winner.



Splert

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

4. I believe SkyWest still has higher hourly rates than Expressjet. But Expressjet promises the largest year end w-2 based on work rules. So, until a full calendar year is up, we won't really know how pay compares.

Nope, our new rates are higher than Skywest.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Nope, our new rates are higher than Skywest.

Hardly. According to airlinepilotpay.com it's more of a wash. Rates for senior guys are slightly better at SkyWest whereas rates for junior guys slightly better at Xjet. Generally rates are within a buck except at the really senior end of the scale. Also SkyWest is negotiating new rates which should in theory put them slightly higher than X-Jet if certain SkyWest negotiators quit drinking cool-aid.

What you really have to look at is work rules. Does X-Jet have a trip rig that is sorely lacking at SkyWest? Flight and duty time limits should be looked at closely. Both companies have 2 year guys upgrading into jets so no big diff there. How is contract enforcement at XJet?

As I mentioned before domicile shoud influence your choice. If you like living in EWR or the other XJet domiciles your choice is easy. If you like the idea of living in DEN, FAT, or SLC then SKYW is a good choice. Lots of other domiciles that are more senior to choose from later but if you want to upgrade DEN or SLC is probably where you'll end up.

 

[Nova]

Both companies have 2 year guys upgrading into jets so no big diff there.

The only 2 year upgrade at XJet is to Senior FO (maybe). Upgrades look to be in the 3-4 year range for a while (remember we have a 2 year gap in our seniority list when we weren't hiring).

 

[rattler]

10/00 hires are scheduled for class in Feb, right know. I will see 5th year FO pay next month.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Nova,

I apologize for the misstatement. I was under the impression that you guys had some very junior captains.

Time to upgrade is an important factor in choosing a regional unless you plan on staying long term. Some regionals like Horizon have a lot of career pilots. They also have the advantage of a well negotiated contract, leading pay/work rules, and halfway decent retirement, which are all things that both SKYW and XJet seem to lack.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Some regionals like Horizon have a lot of career pilots. They also have the advantage of a well negotiated contract, leading pay/work rules, and halfway decent retirement, which are all things that both SKYW and XJet seem to lack.

Horizon actually does not have a retirement plan other than a 401k. ExpressJet has what I am willing to wager to be the best retirement plan (B-plan and 401k) in the small jet industry.

And, have ya read Section 21 yet?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

So tell me the difference between a "B-plan" and a 401-K.

I think Horizon guys get a dollar for dollar match on up to 10% of their income. So a captain pulling in 100K sees 20K going into his retirement account. How much would an XJet captain pulling in 100K see get put into his retirement account?

If I'm not mistaken Horizon guys get the match from day one. Does XJet match the max starting from day one or is it dependent on years of service?

 

[hotwing]

not completely correct...

Nope, our new rates are higher than Skywest.

Guarantee: 75 hrs/mo
[EMB120: 80 hrs/mo]

YEAR CRJ, EMB120 (pics) 18$93$68$40$31

​

17$91$68$40$31 16$88$67$40$31 15$86$66$40$31

14$83$65$40$31 13$81$63$40$31 12$78$61$40$31 11$76$59$40$31 10$74$57$40$31 9$71$56$40$31 8$69$54$40$31 7$67$52$40$31 6$65$51$39$31 5$63$50$38$30 4$61$48$37$29 3$60$47$36$28 2$58$46$35$27 1$56$44$19$19

none

none

up to 6%*

YES * dependent on yr of service.

Guarantee: 75 hrs/mo

YEAR

ERJ145, ERJ135 (pics)
-Most junior captain hired Apr 2000​

​

18$90$80$41 17$88$78$41 16$87$77$41

15$85$75$41 14$83$74$41 13$81$71$41 12$79$69$41 11$76$67$41 10$74$65$41 9$72$64$41 8$70$62$41 7$68$60$40 6$66$59$38 5$64$57$37 4$63$55$36 3$61$54$34 2$59$52$32 1$57$51$22

none

2-6%*

up to 6%

YES *dependent on
yr of service.

 

[Nova]

So tell me the difference between a "B-plan" and a 401-K.

B-Plan = Defined Contribution Plan. Depending on years of service the company contributes a determinted percentage of a pilots income, no pilot contribution is required. It varies from 2.5% <5 years, 4% 5-10, 5% 10-15, 5.5% 15-20, 6% 20+ years.

I think Horizon guys get a dollar for dollar match on up to 10% of their income. So a captain pulling in 100K sees 20K going into his retirement account. How much would an XJet captain pulling in 100K see get put into his retirement account?

Pilot 401k contributions are matched 100% for the following percentages

<5 years of service 4%
5-10 years 5%
10+ 6%

So if a 10 year captain was making 100k he would put in say 6% into his 401k have that matched by the company plus have another 5% given by the B-Plan. So for his $6000 he would walk away with $17,000 a year.

If I'm not mistaken Horizon guys get the match from day one. Does XJet match the max starting from day one or is it dependent on years of service?

I believe so but I'm not sure of that.