Sick and tired of...

[sublimaze]

First of all, hi to everybody (just making my first thread here)

Quick intro, i am an airline pilot flying in Europe and having trained in the USA as well as Europe.

Recently, i heard again a story about flight training in the USA and how much some Euro-Aviators dislike this !

Since this is quite a common attitude of many local flight instructors in european countries, i feel that it's time to post this here once...

Many fellow pilots come to the US and do their private training here. Then, they go back to Europe and convert into JAA. So far no problem since the JAA accepts FAA private licences. But if somebody started training in the US and wants to finish in Europe, the worlds looks different. I am quite embarrassed about the ignorance and arrogance of some local instructors of my home country as the shout against any training in the US.

On the other hand, many airlines send their trainees for instruction and they learn according to the FAA syllabus (at least we did).

When you compare the US practical test standards with many euro-national (before JAR) standards, its a laugh against Europe. When we look at the general aviation accidents with light aircraft in my country (and believe me, its a tiny little country not even half the size of texas) it becomes scary. But some instructors are so fillled with own importance and skills that they forget to teach students vital life saving things...

When i recall the words many flight instructors told me about training in the US, you would not like it. Things as "they can't fly anyways, they don't know about theory, they don't use checklists, flying there is generally not the same education as here...bla,bla...could go on further with many other things..."

Flying should be fun and a pleasure to do, especially when flying privately with a rented airplane. I come to the States every year to do some cross country flying with friends and we enjoy every second. It makes me really feeling angry because exactly these guys are destroying a possible advance to a global license which could make life much easier for all.

Now the sense behind this text. Don't get frustrated with some Euro-pilots who believe they a better than anybody else - they are not ! I have learned both systems and i am more than happy with this. But please fight for your flight training skills here and don't let this happen that some instructors over at home still find that US pilot training is worthless compared to their system.

Happy New Year ! sub

 

[350DRIVER]

When you compare the US practical test standards with many euro-national (before JAR) standards, its a laugh against Europe.

I have flown with more than one "lemon" who would make this statement hold very true. It is comical when you have to ask yourself " how in the fu$k did they get to where they are present day."

3 5 0

 

[CUEBOAT]

I don't know much about JAA. I do how ever work in a building that houses a school that offers JAA. They all talk trash about the written situation and how the writtens for JAA are far more difficult. I always ask them how the oral went once theu finish a checkride and always get the same answer. "we(JAA) don't do orals."

my 2 cents

 

[Flywrite]

I agree with this thread 100%!

I'm a British national, and though I have lived in the US for over twenty years, I thought I would check into getting a JAA license a few years ago. I was non-reving through Gatwick and thought I would pay a visit to the CAA office to get some info on license conversion.

Let's just say that the CAA official I spoke with seemed to regret that he didnt have a longer nose to look down on me from. I have an FAA ATP-AMEL with a BA3100 Type Rating, and at the time, a few thousand hours of FAR121 time, including several hundred PIC, but it meant absolutely NOTHING to them.

The lobby was full of Brit Studetn Pilots squawking at length about some aspect of stalls in a C152. I spoke with them when I entered the building, and got similar treatment from these 50-hour wonders.

I'm sorry, but flying an aircraft is the same no matter where you do it. It is no harder in Britain, France, Germany, or Belgium than it is here. We have weather just as bad here, we have traffic just as dense here. They (Europeans) seem to think that they have the market cornered on low IFR, and consequently things are tougher there. Well, 200-1/2 is the same the world over, and most of Europe is relatively free from the severe thunderstorms and ice storms we see here routinely.

There, I have vented.

Happy New Year everyone (except for those cocky B*stards at Gatwick CAA)

 

[sublimaze]

Difficulty depends....I have seen quite a few of those JAR questions and surprise - many are nearly indentical with the FAA ATP questions .
It is for many Europeans new to write multiple choice tests. They are not used to it. Our ATPL exam (national) was all written without multiple choice so we had to print down lines and lines of text for each answer...what a hassle to correct afterwards .

True, no oral examinations however. For those looking for questions, there are a few private websites where former students have collected a bunch of asked questions during tests. The whole thing consists of a huge databank and each country "selects" what they feel as appropriate.

There are flight schools who have online training centers where students can log in and train the questions. No guarantee that you will be asked the one's you have seen, but its a start.

The one's who are used to the FAA ATP questions, you might be surprised about questions you "have seen before" somewhere. The task is identical, just written in let's say less perfect english .

As for most flight schools in Europe, the first they learn is how to act like a real jerk with big attitude. When you enter a Flight school in Europe, nearly every PPL beginner comes with a black pilots case, jet stickers all over. Do this in the US and they all have a big laugh at you .

They didn't invent the wheel again - JAA copied a lot from the FAA...

 

[sublimaze]

As i mentioned on another post, i can absolutely confirm that flying a heavier aircraft is no big difference between Europe and USA. There are ATC and ICAO procedures differences but that does for sure not need 14 rewritten ATPL exams !

There are VFR operation differences also, but's its all written down in the countries local flight publications.

When i first started flying in Europe, i was waiting for the "big difference"....and huh, nothing happend. We flew from A to B like in the US, but with slower speaking ATC and some weird accents with it

 

[empenage]

sublimaze:

I work for a Swiss company. I was barred from getting my JAA ATPL because he felt threatened. I may just pay for it myself to piss him off,

 

[Thedude]

How doe one cover their FAA cert to JAA. How much does it cost and ow long does it take and where should I look for more info...Thanks...

 

[LJDRVR]

You get the same thing everywhere. A lot of professional pilots in the US look down their noses at most foreign aviators, just because they've had a bad experience with a foreign student or heard about someone else having a bad experience.

Like people that hate the French so much. I love to ask them how many french people they know, and what atrocious deeds have they perpatrated? Invariably they have never met a rude frenchman. "Look what they did with Iraq!" Come on, man. "They" being a few people at the top of the French government who made the stupid decision to come down on the side of getting repaid vs. doing the right thing. Freedom fries! HAHAHAHA.

It's all about perspective. I did a tailwheel conversion for a British chap a few years ago here in the states. He stayed with my wife and I. After coming home one evening from taco bell, he imparted how the cashier had said: (With heavy texas drawl) "U shore do have ah funny aick-sent," Indeed.

Most countries share a pretty similiar accident rate, with some notable exceptions where maintenance and/or CRM killing cultural authority/machismo issues are present.

Other than the language barrier, I believe most US pilots sharing a flightdeck with their european counterparts would find them a lot more like us than we thought. As would they. To bad there's no pilot exchange program for us civilians. Just think what we could learn!

 

[Timebuilder]

To bad there's no pilot exchange program for us civilians. Just think what we could learn!

We just might learn that a crew from India might be willing to fly a widebody for Delta for the same cost as a Comair crew with two years on the job!!

 

[AlbieF15]

I spent over 6 months of my life patroling the skies over Northern and Southern Iraq hoping and praying for the opportunity to evaluate first hand the fantastic training and professional qualifications of some French and Russian trained pilots who plied their trade over the mideast. Alas, none of these foreign trained aviators ever elected allow me to evaluate their capabilities while I was on watch.

Amazingly enough, while they seemed very adept at flying low and fast and spraying unarmed civilians with chemical weapons or attacking villages with attack jets and helicopters, I never met one of these foreign trained pilots who allowed me the opporunity to evaluate their skills up close and personal. It seems that the foreign pilots found that while they were extremely proficient while flying N of the 33 Lat line and S of the 36 Lat line, moving beyond those boundries put them into a situation where they were "uncomfortable" with the comparison against American trained pilots. In fact, last spring, some were so uncomfortable with the rude comparisons to American trained aviators they buried their jets under the sand and put huge gashes into their to preclude us landing and showing off.