SIC Time Counting in Regional Interview?

[SASewerTubeFO]

Hey everyone-
I currently am holding down a job as first officer on a wonderful Metroliner III. By the way it is not a pay for time or training job either! A number of guys from my company right have left to join the ranks of the regionals in the past couple of months. The latest has just been hired with Express Jet. After coming back from his interview, he cautioned me, "Be very careful of how you are logging your SIC time. I threw out all mine as they (being Continental Express pilots during the interview) were grilling everyone on it. "
This certain pilot did not fly the Metro but rather the Cessna Conquest. The Conquest has a certified autopilot and it's MTOW is 9850, I believe. Whereas, the Metros which I am currenty right seating in, do not have an autopilot and have a MTOW of 14500. I guess me being relatively new to the industry with the hopes of landing a regional job in the future has me kind of worried that the time which I am building right now Part 135 is useless. Right now I only count landings and instrument time for which it was my flying leg. Just hoping that you all could shed some light on proper logging of SIC time and how it is currently viewed from within the industry when in the interview process.

Thanks for the help!

 

[ATRCA]

I personally think SIC time in an a/c that does not require an SIC (by type) is a liability in your logbook. That is just my opinion and I do not conduct interviews at XJT so I dont know of any official position.

The reason for the scrutiny is self evident.

I have a freind logging SIC in a BE-90 because the comanies "insurance" requires a second pilot. The a/c does not and neither does their ops specs.

My friend swears the DO has told her its ok to do so but I call BS.

 

[P38JLightning]

SA's SIC time

SA,

There is nothing wrong with logging SIC time, as long as its loggable SIC time. That being said, in many ways, its harder to legitamately log SIC time than it is PIC.

For example, you can't just "sit right seat" in a single pilot plane, with no dual pilot ops in your company ops script, and log SIC. Two pilots CAN log PIC at the same time though, if both are rated in the plane and one is instructing the other. However, while legally loggable, most companies will prefer you not count that time as PIC. Ditto for safety pilot time, which is also legit double logging PIC time, but companies don't like it.

I heard a military guy brag once about his buddies tripple logging the same PIC time. The A/C commander who "signed" for the A/C sleeping in the back (super long leg) the guy in the left seat "acting" as PIC, and the guy in the right seat who was acting as "sole manipulator". I'm not sure how many guys actually try that stunt, but they probably can get away with it, as mil time is still the most valueable on earth and no one would question it. You're not in that situation though, like your friend who just got back from his interview.

As for your SIC situation, I'm not sure if the conquest is a dual pilot A/C. If it isn't, then that explains why Express Jet questioned your friend's SIC time. It would be the same as sitting right seat during a grand canyon tour in a C-210 and logging SIC. It throws up a red flag immediately.

As for the Metro, is that a 2 pilot A/C? If so, you have nothing to worry about. If it is single pilot capable, is the captain single pilot certified? If not, then again, its SIC no questions asked. If you fly for a company who'se ops specs require 2 pilots, and prohibit just one, then again they shouldn't question it.

And while you can't fly right seat in many planes and log SIC, there may be ways to legally log PIC for doing the same thing. But be careful as most companies can spot questionable circumstances like that and will call you on it in interviews.

Good luck with Express Jet. They are a great company who is getting ready to actually raise the bar for everyone out there.

 

[CRJ puppy]

I personally think SIC time in an a/c that does not require an SIC (by type) is a liability in your logbook. That is just my opinion and I do not conduct interviews at XJT so I dont know of any official position.

The reason for the scrutiny is self evident.

I have a freind logging SIC in a BE-90 because the comanies "insurance" requires a second pilot. The a/c does not and neither does their ops specs.

My friend swears the DO has told her its ok to do so but I call BS.

Agreed.

 

[Slye]

Even if you're flying SIC in an aircraft w/ an autopilot, such as the Conquest you mentioned, you can still log SIC provided the OpSpecs say that an SIC is needed. Just because there's an autopilot in the aircraft doesn't necessarily mean you're using the SIC exclusion provided in 135.105. That is assuming you're carrying pax, not sure about if you're only carrying cargo. You should be familiar with the operations and systems of the aircraft and should also have had a 135 SIC checkout flight. You can log SIC when you're not flying (assuming you're operating under 135 at the time), and PIC when you're sole manipulator (unless you don't have a type since you said the Metroliner was >12,500). Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[ATRCA]

The problem with all this is;

Just because it is leagal does not mean it is desireable. When I say desireable I mean in terms of presenting your experience to a prospective employer. There are plenty of black and white ways to build experience that will be recongnized and valued by various employers. The idea is to NOT get into a discussion about your logbook during an interview.

You want the interviewer to view your logbook and have no questions. This SIC thing could get you into a debate about legallity with the person conducting your interview. Sound like fun?

Why would they want to take a chance on your time when the next guy is a CFI who meets the mins and comes from a reputable work environment. Know what I mean?

Your situation in the Metro sounds better than your freinds in the Cessna. The Metro time would appear legit while SIC in a Cessna is well, a bit shaky.

Good luck.

BTW SA, as XJT employee I can say like many that we have our issues but the folks I work with day in and day our are great poeple, the work environment is good and the contract will be industry leading or we'll die trying. Good luck to you and your freinds.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

log whatever the F you want I say....

but YOU'RE the one who will sit there and explain that all your multi time is in the right seat of a King Air 90 or something like that....because the "insurance" or the "ops specs" SAID you could log it...

its real cheesy...

and I personally wouldn't want to be there...

why not just do what it takes to get a PIC check on paper and log REAL flight time.

 

[d.fitz]

FYI

The conquest I is a single pilot airplane. No type required by certification either...

When flying the conquest, I only logged the time I was flying left seat or the time I was acting as a flight instructor (for a company checkout or training an MEI).

Even if the OPS Spec says its OK for your company to log SIC time - I would bet XJT will call you on it.

SIC that I think they are looking for is time in an aircraft requiring a type rating for the PIC and an SIC check for the SIC - that is part 91 anyway.... (FAR 61.55).

The only SIC that I have logged was CJ1 and ultra, both after having an SIC check.

 

[Future SNA]

....

I'll be flat out honest, during my interview at XJT, an applicant DID get called out on their SIC time. They had logged SIC in a C-90, which doesn't require two pilots obviously. After asking, "did you got to school in it." they replied no. And then got drilled with 2 systems questions, neither of which they had ANY idea about. From what I understand, just because your ops specs require a 2 pilot crew, if your type of flying, based on the regs, does not, then your getting into that b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t category. Your companies luring you into logging mult time in a plane that isn't necessarily legal to do it in. The C-425 in the earlier remark is this case, a 425 doesn't require 2 pilots, at least in my flying in them it didn't. As for the metro guy, the 3 doesnt require a type rating, so you can log PIC when your flying. The larger one, above 12,500 does require a type, you can't log any PIC, and only SIC if the captain is only single-pilot typed, which they have for it. I think you can get a waiver through the FAA for logging SIC, like Key Lime does, just be ready to back it up. I think everyone has their opinion on this, to each his own. Personally, I could care less either way, how you log it, I think it's a pretty gray area that could be good for your career, or possibly destroy your chances, all depends.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Can you guys clear up logging SIC in a DHC-6?

I have a number of friends who fly right seat in a DHC-6, 121. They all log it as SIC, and yes there is a specific training program and checkride you need to pass before you get online. Now this right seat time is very valuable to a 121 carrier, like SKW - QX?

The shady part is, I know a few that read "the sole manipulator" FAR and interpret it in a way to log the flight time PIC. I believe this PIC time is logged when they are actually doing the flying from the right seat - I sure would not want to explain to a company how I managed to log PIC time in the right seat of a TwOtter!

 

[d.fitz]

It is my understanding that the only guy logging PIC in a 121 environment is the guy who signs for the airplane. Look at all the captains that went back to FO from layoffs (or whatever) - if there are two typed guys in the front - only the guy who is signing for the plane logs PIC the other (even with a type and flying his leg) logs SIC....

IMHO, the DHC-6 right seat time will immediately be disregarded in a 121 interview and may be viewed as padding the logbook - especially if the are really close to the hiring mins...

 

[Ace757]

While we are talking about how the regionals view SIC time, why don't we discuss how they view flight instructor time. I have talked to several people in charge of pilot recruitment at varies companies that said that they would prefer not to hire flight instructors. Not quite sure the reason behind this, but just look at who is getting jobs now. It sure isnt flight instructors.

 

[sewerpiper]

Sewertube, I was in your exact position. Don't worry about it man. I have been to 3 interviews lately, one with express jet. The guys doing my interview at XJ barely knew what a metro was, let alone that it could be flown single pilot. At none of my interviews, was anything brought up about my SIC time in the Pipe. Infact, if the HR/Tech guy has any experience in a metro, he will have more respect for you in most cases. Metros are more of a demanding A/C to fly than what they are currently flying. But of course also make sure you have done an 8410 SIC check and it's in your ops speck too. Not saying you don't have to be legal of course. Take care and good luck.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Lots of opinions on this one. Here's mine.....If it's a real job as SIC (not just flying along to get time) then log it that way and portray it exactly the way it is at an interview if it comes up. If it's a single pilot aircraft that you're rated in (MEL no type required) then log all the time you are manipulating the controls as PIC. In the unlikely scenario that it comes up on an interview describe it exactly the way it was. Someone else signed for the airplane and allowed you to ride along to get some experience. Just don't BS with the panel. Describe it the way it was and know the general systems of the airplane. The best and most accurate deal for riding along is if the Captain is an MEI and will give you "dual" for the whole flight. That's what I do when I have an occasional guest pilot in the cockpit.

 

[SASewerTubeFO]

Thanks everyone who has posted it has cleared a lot of questions.

Just to end some confusion however I would like to clear some details up with my situation. I did go through a long training program that did include a 8410 SIC check and IOE before I was able to go on the line.

Second, Future SNA mentioned that Metro 3 doers not require a type. That is incorrect as a Metro 3's MTOW is 14500. A Metro 2 is the one that does not require a type (12500).

Well, again thanks everyone.

 

[xdashdriver]

Part 61 controls what can and cannot be logged by a pilot. Let's not confuse what can be legally LOGGED with what a specific company may allow you to COUNT to meet their specific requirements.

Part 121, two typed guys up front (like SWA), right-seat pilot can log PIC per sole manipulator if he's flying, left seat pilot (assuming he's the one that signed for the machine) can log PIC because he's acting PIC while using the privileges of his ATP. No ambiguity, he can log it, legally. Now, whether his company will let him use it to meet certain requirements (like experience for upgrade) that is a different question, however no company can tell you what you can and cannot put in your logbook. Whether you choose to use that time in an interview situation is totally up to you, or up to the company if they define what they're looking for.

On my resume, I have Logged PIC and Acting PIC separated. In other words, the Logged PIC matches up with my logbook, and for those flights that I logged PIC per sole manipulator but wasn't the head honcho for the flight, then I subtracted those hours from my logged PIC and came up with Acting PIC. That way, you please everyone.

So, log everything that is legal to log. When it comes time for an interview, then pick and choose.

 

[Twotter76]

DHC-6 SIC time

Regarding ILStoMins question abuot logging SIC time in a Twotter I can and have done it - as have many people I know. The important part here is that we were operating under part 121 - two pilots clearly required. Our ops specs VERY cleary stated the need for two pilots - an PIC and a SIC - even to taxi. So even though the aircraft can be certified for single pilot operations (not under part 121) because we operate it in a 121 environment that is not relevant. I never had anyone question my 1000 or so hours of SIC Twotter time at an interview.

Just be really careful about loggin PIC in it. I didn't do it because I am not signing for the aircraft or sitting in the left seat so I figure I am not the PIC. But I know people that have used the "sole manipulator" argument - I wont get into whether or not that is legal but really keep in mind that a job interview is the absolute last place that you want to be defending the validity of your flight time.

 

[xdashdriver]

Part 61 controls what can and cannot be logged by a pilot. Let's not confuse what can be legally LOGGED with what a specific company may allow you to COUNT to meet their specific requirements.

Part 121, two typed guys up front (like SWA), right-seat pilot can log PIC per sole manipulator if he's flying, left seat pilot (assuming he's the one that signed for the machine) can log PIC because he's acting PIC while using the privileges of his ATP. No ambiguity, he can log it, legally. Now, whether his company will let him use it to meet certain requirements (like experience for upgrade) that is a different question, however no company can tell you what you can and cannot put in your logbook. Whether you choose to use that time in an interview situation is totally up to you, or up to the company if they define what they're looking for.

On my resume, I have Logged PIC and Acting PIC separated. In other words, the Logged PIC matches up with my logbook, and for those flights that I logged PIC per sole manipulator but wasn't the head honcho for the flight, then I subtracted those hours from my logged PIC and came up with Acting PIC. That way, you please everyone.

So, log everything that is legal to log. When it comes time for an interview, then pick and choose.

I don't see why some people see the sole manipulator "argument" as being any kind of a grey area. It's in the regulations, black and white, you can log sole manipulator time as PIC in an aircraft that you're rated for. Just because airlines only want to know about your acting PIC time, doesn't mean you can't LOG the sole manipulator time. If you don't want to answer questions about it on the interview, then don't count it towards your PIC when filling out the airline application. The FARs tell you what you can and cannot LOG, not the company your work for. Now, if you don't WANT to log any sole manipulator time, because you feel it's "cheating" then that is your discretion. But just because one or two people don't, doesn't make it questionable or illegal.

Personally, I find it extremely odd that an aviation authority would allow 2 people to log PIC at the same time. It does not make much sense. It took a while to get my head around this idea when I first came to the U.S. It would be easier and make a lot more sense if there were just one definition of PIC. Despite not understanding the rationale, I still log everything that is legal to log.

 

[lymanm]

...

It IS illogical to have two people logging PIC time, but that is what the regs allow. In other countries, you can only have one PIC per flight - which makes infinitely more sense. When counting my time on my resumé, I indicate my "PIC" time and then my "Actual Command" time; they are always quite different. This actual command time is essentially what gets people hired.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Jesus guys...

Look on the release to see who is the "PIC"...in the 121 environment, it ain't the right seater!