Should CFI's settle for minimum wage?

[Toy Soldier]

This is a topic that I hear alot about around the local flight schools. Should we, CFI's, settle for minimum wage pay while administering professional services?

I charge $45/hr, flight or ground, and have no problem keeping students. My rates went up from $35 as soon as I got my ATP and NAFI Master CFI designation.

For some reason, the local schools are stuck in the mindset that $17 to $24 is all that they can get. I explained to those individuals that golf teachers get upwards of $75/hr! The problem is that we CFI's are teaching folks to be turned loose in the national airspace system with tons of liability to boot, and we tend to give our liability away for darn near minimum wage! By the way folks, I did an internet search for random flight schools and found out that $40 to $45/hr is pretty much an average rate.

I used to "beat on" the new instructors for NOT charging for their ground time because they felt that "flying was expensive enough"! Well guess what, if students aren't paying us to learn to fly then they will be paying the local skydiving school, golf shops, or some other sport that is willing to charge graciously for their time.

As professionals, we need and should be paid as professionals. As long as CFI's are willing to fly for minimum wage, then thats all that they'll ever get. We need to band together as professionals and charge for our services. Let's not rape ourselves or sell ourselves out cheap. To reiterate, I am constantly turning students down (at $45/hr) because of a full plate and a full time job while other instructors are getting paid minimum wage! We can do it brothers and sisters.

What are your thoughts?

 

[ArcherB]

I agree, however in many cases the student is paying close to 50 dollars per hour to the flight school and the instructor is not even seeing half of that. That is the case where I am, we get the same rate on the ground and in the air and people are willing to pay the school the 50 an hour. Maybe I should free lance.

 

[RFtech]

I am with you.

What is NAFIs position on this issue?

 

[pilotyip]

pay rate

You can charge whatever you want, and the market place will determine if your product is worth what you are charging. You can elect to take an instructor's job at $12 to 15/hr or not take the job. I contract for $12 per hour to a local school. I do it because it is fun. You can effect the market by with holding your service while waiting for a higher wage. If enought CFI's do it then there will be a shortage of CFI's and rates will go up. Or you can a take a lower paying job, build time and move on to your next step in your career progression. It is a free market and you can do what you want, but you can not make customers or employers pay what you demand if the product is available at a lower cost.

 

[RFtech]

"Or you can a take a lower paying job, build time and move on to your next step in your career progression. "

pilotyip

thats the bottom line, like it or not.

 

[pilotyip]

agreed

could not agree more

 

[Deftone45075]

Thats pretty much the bottom line everywhere.

CFI's provide a valuable service that carries a lot of responsibility. Their services are well worth a lot more than what they get paid, but like in all areas of this industry, there is going to be someone else who will do your job for less, and therefor you just don't have the pull to demand a higher wage. It is unfair. Especially since a lot of flight schools (at least near me ) are charging close to $50 and hour and giving 17-20 to the instructor. The rates have gone up for the airplanes as well. I'm sure the schools could afford to give A LOT more of that $50 to the CFI.

 

[RFtech]

bump

 

[Sc00ter]

"Or you can a take a lower paying job, build time and move on to your next step in your career progression. "

pilotyip

thats the bottom line, like it or not.

Would you be interested in paying me $50 per hour to fly right seat in my Lear?

How is whoring yourself out to a low paying job and undermining the value of a quality CFI's service different from PFT?

scoot

 

[RFtech]

this should be good.

any comments?

 

[bigD]

It's the same principle as PFT - in that you're damaging the industry to move yourself forward. However I will say that there's a pretty large gap between getting paid $10/hour to do a job, and PAYING $100/hour to do a job (in a 1900, or whatever).

It seems that around here (Austin) schools are getting $30-35 per hour, and from what I understand, anywhere from $12-20 of that is getting back to the instructors. I also see a good amount of freelance instructors doing pretty well for themselves. Then I hear about instructors down in Florida getting paid $5/hr? How is this happening? Is there just a huge amount of CFI's down there compared to the number of students available?

Sigh...well, regardless of the situation, it falls on our shoulders as CFI's (and potential CFI's) to do something, because the flight schools sure as hell won't.

 

[JediNein]

A story:

One flight student is a sound editor for movies. A CFI friend wants to make a video. He asked this student if exchanging some flight instruction for sound editing work would be acceptable. The flight student's first question was, "Will YOU be the instructor?"

Even if the flight instruction is free, the student doesn't want it from just any instructor. A CFI could be PAYING this flight student for the privlidge of instructing him and it still wouldn't be acceptable.

For reference, the CFI friend charges $100 per hour for his time and is still turning students away. The average price on the field is $40 an hour, including newly minted instructors. The lowest price is free, the highest price is several thousand an hour including the business jet aircraft (BBJ).

If the instructor is not worth it, minimum wage is too much. If the instructor is worth it, there is no cap on the rate.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[bigD]

The problem with your story JediNein, is that it only applies to freelance instructing situations.

At most flight schools that I'm aware of, pay is determined by ratings and seniority - both which can be independent of instructing capability.

 

[Don]

EXACTLY bigD - I don't get to set my rates. There are three operators in town. They all charge about $30.00 per hour and take a cut of that. If I wanted to charge $50.00 per hour I'd have to get the FBO to change the policy. You could probably freelance a living out of instructing at a bigger city, but most places will not allow you to freelance. You have to go through the FBO and charge the FBO rates.

 

[Sc00ter]

this should be good.

any comments?

I was asking the question to you, RFtech. What are YOUR comments?

scoot

 

[JediNein]

Is it still freelance when you run your own flight school? This CFI started out at a flying club. He set his own rates then. The flying club dissolved and he started his own school.

Many FBOs will raise their rates for the instructor that commands a higher price. If you are turning away students at the FBO's top rate, sit down with the owner and get a higher one. If you are at FlightSafety, this may only be a raise. If you are at Mom n Pop school with 10 instructors, and you are their top producer, they'll flex. If not, it's time to go work elsewhere or become freelance. I am talking about the only FBO in town, one of three FBOs on the field, and in busy SoCal where flight schools are a dime a dozen.

It took one instructor in central CA three years to get his FBO to raise the general instruction rates above $25 an hour. He told the FBO owner that his rate was a certain amount and he wasn't going lower. His rate was $50, the FBO took their portion, he took the rest. The students he turned away he sent to the FBO's other instructors with the instructions that the students were to be charged no less than $40 an hour. By the tenth student, the FBO raised its rates to $35 an hour. The FBO lowered the rates temporarily after September 11th, but raised them back up within 2 months.

In Salt Lake City an instructor was getting overloaded. He told his FBO that his rate was going up so the other instructors got some work. The FBO said, "let's try it." Instead of $14 an hour, the instructor charged $25. Seven years later that FBO is in the $40-$60 an hour range.

There was an awesome instructor hidden at a small local airport. He refused to charge more than $25 an hour or for his ground time. "No one will pay more than $25 an hour for flight instruction." He recently quit instructing because he wasn't making ends meet. At the other end of the field, people are happily paying $35 an hour for ink-wet instructors to fly in beat-up junker airplanes renting for $85 an hour.

I refuse to believe that a professional flight instructor has to charge minimum rates and live on minimum wage.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[ShawnC]

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, I paid $24/hr for most of my flight training, I would have never been able to affrod to fly at $45/hr. Now I wouldn't mind paying the instructor $24-30, if he got most of it. But even at schools that charge $45, at most they get about $15/hr.

 

[RFtech]

quote:

Originally posted by RFtech
"Or you can a take a lower paying job, build time and move on to your next step in your career progression. "

pilotyip

thats the bottom line, like it or not.



Would you be interested in paying me $50 per hour to fly right seat in my Lear?

How is whoring yourself out to a low paying job and undermining the value of a quality CFI's service different from PFT?

scoot


Well now, I am not a CFI or a PFT. I may possibly be a CFI someday that should explain why I am taking an active interest in this discussion.


“Would you be interested in paying me $50 per hour to fly right seat in my Lear?”

No thanks.

“How is whoring yourself out to a low paying job and undermining the value of a quality CFI's service different from PFT?”

I don’t know I stay far away from the PFT flame wars.

My only point is - the system is raping these kids where I train. They do a great job, but a forced to work for peanuts? Why? “To pay their dues.” So that they can move up the ladder.

Why shouldn’t flight instruction be a “profession”?

I wish I had the power to change the industry, but I don not.

That is why I ask questions to folks who have more experience in this field.

For example:

“What is NAFIs position on this issue?”

I would like to find out if anything is being done on another level that I am not aware of.

Anyway, I sure this will not satisfy you, but I am going to watch the fireworks over Baghdad.

 

[DTNflyer]

At the airport I CFI at we recently raised the bar for CFI pay. In my opinion the only way to do this is to be associated with every instructor on the field to negotiate a standard fee for instructing and no less. There are hardly any "ink wet" instructors so we have credibilty to charge our rates.

I instruct at an FBO/Charter/Flight School. Iam not an employee and I freelance but the majority of my instructing is at this place. There are two experienced CFI's me and the latter, we both freelance and charge 30hr flt & grnd. The student pays the FBO then they pay me directly, I get paid after every flt or they pre-pay me 5hrs at a time.

This is the only way in my opinion to do it, there are a lot of other factors such as I have been at that airport since 1998 ( thats when I first started taking lessons) so people our associated with my "face" and consider me a local there. I have an ATP, Gold Seal CFI-CFII-MEI, and A&P License. I am also a furloughed airline pilot so people think I'm even more credible (I think).

If I went to another airport or town I would be a nobody and would be making what everybody else made, I think 30hr is okay but I would like to charge more for my time which will come later.

If you can stick to the airport your at make a positve image of yourself and sell yourself. Treat your students right and they won't question how much you charge, if they do tell them you get no medical and dental have no christmas party and bonus.

I am 25 with about 1300 dual given if anyone is wondering, hardly an old CFI veteran.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Making a moral issue out of CFI pay is a bit of a stretch.

A truly 'principled' new CFI will get passed up by the whole world while they wait to find someone willing to pay $50/hr. They may find a couple, but not enough to build the required time.

Problem #1 with this industry:
Too many pilots for too few jobs = low pay (simple economics)

Problem #2:
Employers (for the most part) measure by flight time instead of knowledge and skill. This is a disincentive for CFIs to become good at their jobs. It simply encourages flying as much as possible. When employers finally measure candidates according to their real skills, the industry maay change.

In the man time, do what you have to do to get your hours.