Short/Soft Field Takeoff

[minitour]

To save time lately, I've been just practicing "combo" takeoff and landings. One where I have to keep the nosewheel up but clear the 50foot obstacle too.

My question is (and I'll reference a 152):
For the takeoff...
Flaps 10, full back elevator, full power, accel to Vx in Ground Effect, clear the obstacle, accel to Vy, positive rate, flaps up.

When it comes to beginning the takeoff run, would you think it is better to come to a complete stop at the end of the runway and apply full power (short) or continue the roll and transition into full power (soft)?

I can see VERY logical reasons for both ideas.

On one hand, you've got trees at the other end of the field, bad time to not be developing full power in the engine.

On the other hand, you've got a soft field, bad time to let the nosewheel "settle" into a hole or depression in the turf.

For the landing:
Full flaps, 55 down short final, keep the nose off the runway.

If the field is that short and soft, is it better to slam on the brakes like you would on a 1600' asphalt runway?

I can, again, see logical reasons for both ideas.

If you don't slam on the brakes, you're going to slam into a tree.

If you do slam on the brakes, you're going to throw the nose into the ground and risk flipping it over...plus you've got that soft ground slowing you down.

I realize there are "book values" for how much a soft field increases your takeoff roll and landing distance, but I figured I'd ask the "real life" pilots about "real life" situations.

Any input would be helpful. Thanks a ton!

-mini

 

[avbug]

Reality check. Most short fields are soft, and most soft fields are short. Many of them are surrounded by obstacles.

The reality is that very often, there's really no difference between short field and soft field; it's the same field.

Therefore, your goal is to get off the ground and into ground effect quickly, without bogging down, then climb above obstacles.

Short answer; do whatever is required and don't ding the airplane. If it's soft, keep it rolling. If it's not soft, you can do a braked start. If it's soft, keep the aircraft light and get it in the air; if it's not soft, then get it fast, quickly. Adapt to the specific surface and surrounding conditions, and do whatever is required to make the airplane fly.

 

[minitour]

mmmmmmmm'kay.....so use some judgement?

That's all ya gotta say, "use some judgement".

No need for the smartass "reality check" I realize most soft fields are short, which is how I convinced the instructor that it was worth it to practice said takeoffs and landings...just looking for an opinion on which factor was more important. Obviously the most important factor is judgement and common sense...that's all ya gotta say...

-mini

 

[pilotyip]

There is no PTS for a short/soft field. The procedures are not compatible. It is a recipe for disaster to attempt a soft field procedure on a short runway.

 

[Peanut gallery]

What????

I'm with Avbug on this one. Every soft field I have ever done was short and had obstacles at the end.

 

[Lead Sled]

Reality check. Most short fields are soft, and most soft fields are short. Many of them are surrounded by obstacles.

The reality is that very often, there's really no difference between short field and soft field; it's the same field.

Therefore, your goal is to get off the ground and into ground effect quickly, without bogging down, then climb above obstacles.

Short answer; do whatever is required and don't ding the airplane. If it's soft, keep it rolling. If it's not soft, you can do a braked start. If it's soft, keep the aircraft light and get it in the air; if it's not soft, then get it fast, quickly. Adapt to the specific surface and surrounding conditions, and do whatever is required to make the airplane fly.

Avbug's spot on. However, for the purposes of the checkride...

'Sled

 

[avbug]

Mini,

If you don't like the advice, don't ask. You didn't get a bill, did you? Apparently you aren't aware that most soft fields are short, and visa versa. You just learned something. My post didn't say "use good judgement" because that wasn't what I said, nor what I intended to say.

Read. Think. Shut up, and think about it some more. You might just learn something.

And yes, short and soft are most certainly compatible...of necessity. Reality.

 

[nosehair]

There is no PTS for a short/soft field. The procedures are not compatible. It is a recipe for disaster to attempt a soft field procedure on a short runway.

There's the Big-A Numero Uno reason that most pilots and instructors of today cannot fly/adapt to the real world. Instructors and, consequently, students don't teach/wanna learn anything but the PTS.

There is so much more to teaching how-to-fly than the PTS.

Since the real-world act of "using common sense & good judgement" in negotiating a soft/short field would be very SUBJECTIVE in evaluation, the FAA sidesteps this one and tests the procedures seperately and hopes you can put them together in the real world as Avbug suggests.

Mini is actually interested in learning something that is NOT in the PTS - one of a dying breed. Keep it on, Mini

 

[pilotyip]

Be conservative

Nose hair, I learned to fly in the military, we learned to fly in a very tight procedural envelope, and this allowed us learn quickly with low flight time and allowed us to gain experience without killing ourselves. I use the same procedures when teaching civilians. I have instructed in my C-150, the C-150 is under powered. I did not want my students killing themselves by trying something they were not certified to do. I had a 2200' grass strip I used, it had a fence at the end and a 30' tree off to the side. Using short field technique you would clear the tree, on the same runway using soft field technique you could barely clear the fence. I told them to stay the heck away from short unpaved strips. New pilots should not be taught to put themselves in situations where they may be in over their respective heads. As a pilot gains experience they will be more capable of recognizing how an airplane will perform. At the same time and near where I instructing 3 people were killed when a new pilot attempted short/soft procedure in a fully loaded Cherokee, and later another pilot ran off the end of the same runway after attempting a soft/short procedure. The field collected water after rainstorms and was almost swampy; it was a true soft field. Most grass strips are not true soft fields, and short field procedure can be used.

 

[falcon20driver]

Super Cub http://www.supercub.org/index.php