Settle the dispute

[GravityHater]

You are on vectors and an assigned altitude and call the field in sight about 10-20 miles out.
You are told to turn as desired to "intercept and track the localizer inbound".
You do not get "cleared for (any type) approach"

a) You can descend at will
b) You must remain at the last assigned altitude
c) Some other option.

I thought it was b), compadre thinks it is a); tell me why one of us is wrong.

Thanks, tell me if you need more info.
Couldn't find 'track the localizer inbound' in the PCG.
Is there another reference for common phrases?

 

[81Horse]

You are right. Your compadre is wrong because he's wrong.

Also, per the AIM:

4-4-9. Adherence to Clearance
a. When air traffic clearance has been obtained under either visual or instrument flight rules, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall not deviate from the provisions thereof unless an amended clearance is obtained.​

And the assigned altitude is part of your clearance -- until superseded by an approach clearance, or other amendment.​

 

[GravityHater]

Well thats one vote, I will close the thread there and run to him with the answer! Just joking, but it will be hard to convince him - he is stubborn, arrogant and a know-it-all. No 'give' when it comes to interpretation and opinion. I hope I don't get crotchety inflexible and mean when I get older.
Actually I'm not sure I will bring it up again, I mainly just want to know so I can do the right thing myself.

But if it was to come up again it would be a lot easier if I could say, Hmmm, lets see what the (insert accepted 'bible' on these things) (or what some highly respected person) says."

Any references? Otherwise its his word against mine plus "some other guy on the internet, right!", if you know what I mean.

 

[AngelKing]

I second it, must remain at last assigned altitude.


AK

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Yup... Gotta stay at your last assigned altitude until cleared an approach (visual or instrument).

 

[CaptETWes]

5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures

b. When operating on an unpublished route or while being radar vectored, the pilot, when an approach clearance is received, shall, in addition to complying with the minimum altitudes for IFR operations (14 CFR Section 91.177), maintain the last assigned altitude unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC, or until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP. After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. Notwithstanding this pilot responsibility, for aircraft operating on unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or assign an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure. For this purpose, the procedure turn of a published IAP shall not be considered a segment of that IAP until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon which the procedure turn is predicated.​

I'd say take this to your compadre. You cannot descend until cleared for an approach (visual or otherwise) until on a published segment of that approach, in this case the Loc. Cheers.

 

[timeoff]

FWIW, I've gotten "N123 turn left xxx, maintain xxx, join the localizer"......then the next transmission is "N123 contact tower on xxx.xx". Happens daily here at the MCO tracon.

I agree that it is not a clearance to decend as your last clearance was to maintain xxx. It is merely a clearance to join a published course (just like a vector to an airway). There is a reason that controllers won't spit out the approach clearance at that specific time. Why? I don't know.

I would get out the AFD and call up the tracon yourself and ask them. They can clear it up in just a few minutes. They are usually pretty cool about pilots calling with questions. I called about a TFR once and the MCO supe spent 15 minutes with me, pulling out references and reading over them with me. He admitted he learned something about the TFR also.

OR....PM Hold West. He seems to know his stuff.

 

[wrxpilot]

I just had that same question on my IFR written. The FAA says it is B (remain at last assigned altitude) until you are given the magic words, "Cleared for the approach".

 

[GravityHater]

The only way I will convince this guy of anything is if he has it happen and actually gets busted. Even then he will argue with the judge probably!
Thanks, at least I will have the knowledge to keep my own record clean.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

The only way I will convince this guy of anything is if he has it happen and actually gets busted. Even then he will argue with the judge probably!
Thanks, at least I will have the knowledge to keep my own record clean.

If he is too stupid to read the reg book, then it is only a matter of time before he gets a certified letter from the feds.

Sounds like he is treating the described clearance like a "Cleared for visual approach" , very good way to get somebody killed in many parts of the country. Please tell us where this bozo flies normally so we can be on the look out for him! I have a strong aversion against aerial impacts!