Seminole Drivers

[DrewBlows]

OK all you Piper Seminole drivers. I'm getting checked out to instruct in the mighty PA-44, and it seems that it has a neat quirk on landing. It's not particularly hard to land, full stalls are the norm, but it seems that people (myself included) have a hard time keeping the nosewheel from slamming into the runway. I have been given advice from a few other instructors, but haven't had a chance to try any of their techniques yet. So all you folks with a million hours in the Seminole; How exactly do you get the nosewheel to touch down softly?

 

[Flyforfood]

Here's my two cents,


I've noticed that if you carry more speed into the ground effect, that the Seminole's tail will be able to create the needed force to keep the nosewhere from slamming down. Of course, one will need to take into consideration that the ground roll will increase if one lands at a higher speed (I'm sure you probably already knew that, but its just a thought). That T-Tail is just not very effective for me at low speeds on both takeoff and landing. Perhaps it could be operator error.....haha...Hope that helps some.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Foward CG.

 

[scubabri]

I ran into the same problem with the Seneca, and I found that if you have to much speed on landing that it wants to land flat and it's hard to keep the nose from slamming.

I start at a higher pitch attitude, more power and about 90mph and that seems to keep it from slamming into the ground.

I don't recall what I did on the Seminole to keep it from happening, I don't think I was smart enough back then to figure it out and the instructors were just used to it and they probably didn't know any better.

my opinion.

sb

 

[MarineGrunt]

Foward CG.

Suupose I should explain myself better...

I've never had that problem in a Seminole, but I did in a 180HP Arrow. no matter how hard I tried to hold the nose off, the nose wheel would thwack the runway every time. I tohught the CG might be a little to far forward so I tried throwing a little weight in the baggage compartment and that solved the problem.

 

[Fly BI]

The trim, the trim!

It's all about the trim. Trim the nose for 85 and fly her to the ground. Be gentle; and start early, when retarding the throttles. By the time my mains touch, i'm closing the last little bit of throttle. Don't be shy about holding the yoke back. Take your time lowering the nose. Good luck.

 

[flytheblue]

Trim will definately help you out...the Seminole sure seems tame next to the Seneca when it comes to landing.
I had landing issues with the Seneca when I first started flying it until I discovered the super secret magic spot that it needed to be trimmed to..... which no one told me about of course. I also found it easier to set trim where I wanted it by manually trimming as opposed to spinning it electrically. Carrying a touch of power into the landing doesn't hurt when you have runway to spare.

 

[Arthur]

So far, nobody's mentioned nosewheel position. If you're landing in a strong crosswind, you'll be cross controlled, and as a result the nosewheel will be "cocked" the same direction the crosswind is taking the airplane. I've found that if you neutralize the rudder pedals after the first main hits, then the nosewheel will be straight upon contact with the runway. And for all landings, the alignment of any wheel with the runway will primarily determine smooth wheel contact. You'll have to judge by looking outside and determine the pitch attitude of the airplane -- for when to anticipate nosewheel touchdown. It's at this point and after the first main hits, that the rudders are neutralized . The degree and rate at which this is done depends on the intensity of the crosswind which also determines the degree to which the controls are presently deflected and how much effort will be required to neutralize them -- meaning the rudder pedals. The ailerons as you know are continually deflected into the crosswind as the landing continues to the rollout.

 

[172driver]

It's not particularly hard to land, full stalls are the norm, but it seems that people (myself included) have a hard time keeping the nosewheel from slamming into the runway

Could it be because the airplane is FULLY STALLED???? Try touching down a little faster to give the wings and elevator more effectiveness and the nosewheel a shorter distance to drop. The Seminole runs out of elevator effectiveness at nearly the same speed as the wings. Lands much more smoothly at higher speeds in my experience. It's not a 152, after all.

Of course, on a short field, do what you gotta do.

 

[Sig]

You can carry a nose-wheelie all the way down the runway and still be stalled if you carry power in the landing.

The easiest way to keep the nosewheel off is trim the plane for 80 knots on short final (assuming an appch speed of 88), THEN add at least two more wheels of nose up trim. I don't know what power setting you're using, but 15", props full forward, 25* flaps and 88 knots is perfect for a 3:1... at any rate, any power at all with the wing still flying will make you float for days. You'll feel an uncomfortable amount of pressure- don't pull back too much or you'll take off again. Just don't relax when the mains touch, and you'll keep that nose off...

Flown about 700 hrs in them.

 

[flyifrvfr]

I just got my commercial multi from atp and I had the same problem with the nosewheel. I weigh 280 pounds and we flew with reduced fuel and still had a forward C.G. but within limits. I flew with 16" of M.P. flaps 25 and props forward all with no improvement. The other problem I had with the seminole was on rotation, that plane just didn't like to rotate until 75 knots and then it would leap off of the groung. Good Fun.

 

[Groundskprwilly]

Fly a good on speed approach and cross the thershold at the calculated speed and during the flare keep 11" MP. The 11" provides some induced airflow over the wings, and will soften the nose wheel touchdown. It takes some practice, but it can be done.

 

[kabz]

Stick a couple of boxes of oil in the 'trunk' and fly the speeds in the manual. I liked my limited time in the seminole, nice safe feeling plane to fly, didn't land as nicely as a Beechcraft, but way better than the god awful seneca.

 

[bobbysamd]

PA-44 landings

I second the above; you do not want to full-stall-land a Seminole. You want to keep some air flowing over the stabilator on top of the T-tail. On the other hand, you don't want to fly it on the runway with excessive speed.

It's been ten years since I've flown a Seminole (which, coincidentally, was the last airplane I flew - have about 1300 hours in them) and I don't remember all the numbers without looking them up, but I agree with the recommendations above about blue line on final for a normal landing, 80 kts on short final, and, in the flare, gradually adding pitch as you reduce power. Don't let the nose drop; you should be adding back pressure as you reduce the throttles. In so doing, you should touch down on the mains a split-second after you've reduced the throttles to idle, nose-high. I agree about trimming it well and flying it to the ground.

Really, a Seminole is an extremely friendly and fun airplane to land. If you nail the speeds and set up a stabilized approach, there is no reason why you cannot nail every landing, normal, short-field, or whatever.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[Cat Driver]

Even if the approach was not stabilized you should still be able to land it smoothly.

 

[willbav8r]

Okay, you've read comments on the stall......I'm guessing you use up a lot of runway awaiting the stall warning horn? So, now you are hopefully going to cease full stall landings in twins or even high performance singles (but it is a must for a 3 pt in a tailwheel).....

I try to cross the threshold at about 80, power back and aim to touch at 75 - 70. With full flaps the nose likes to slam unless you can be quick to "roll it on" - this also means no high angle of attack. No flaps or 25 deg usually gives smoother "de-rotation" and saves that bad design on the nosewheel - cracking the bolt on the overcenter arm which leads to nosewheel collapse.......make sure your pre-flight is a good one! I found it once and felt good all week.

 

[DrewBlows]

Okay, you've read comments on the stall......I'm guessing you use up a lot of runway awaiting the stall warning horn? So, now you are hopefully going to cease full stall landings in twins or even high performance singles (but it is a must for a 3 pt in a tailwheel).....

I try to cross the threshold at about 80, power back and aim to touch at 75 - 70. With full flaps the nose likes to slam unless you can be quick to "roll it on" - this also means no high angle of attack. No flaps or 25 deg usually gives smoother "de-rotation" and saves that bad design on the nosewheel - cracking the bolt on the overcenter arm which leads to nosewheel collapse.......make sure your pre-flight is a good one! I found it once and felt good all week.

Which bolt is it exactly, and where would it be cracked?

 

[willbav8r]

As you pre-flight the plane, get down and dirty to inspect the nosewheel. I say this, because to look up into the wheel well you need to really crouch down. Now, when looking for good oleo extension, doors etc if you look from either side, you will see the overcenter arm (I think that is the correct terminology) which raises and lowers the nosewheel. You will see two pivot points on this assembly, which are connected using a bolt (fastener). It is these bolts that are obviously subjected to landing and static loads. An AD was issued some time ago to replace the original bolt. However, wear and tear still causes failures, so it is something I look for every pre-flight.

Found it where one side looked fine (bolt head) but the other side was missing entirely! Could almost guarantee it to fail on the next one or two landings, ensuring prop strikes etc. Suppose it may be a prevalent (bad) design in other retractables?

 

[DrewBlows]

Thanks for the info. I'll pass it on to my students. I still haven't had a chance to try any landing techniques, as the weather in Michigan sucks so I'm not flying. I'm thinking that the CG is probably the biggest issue. Most of our operations are with an instructor and a student which puts the CG at the very front of the envelope. In fact the last time I flew the Seminole someone had topped off the tanks which put us right on the front line of the CG envelope. I only did one landing, but the results were predictable. The mains touched down softly and despite my best efforts the nosewheel settled with a thud. Oh well. I guess the forward CG is good for those VMC demos. If it keeps my students from putting the plane into a spin I guess I'll take the thud when the nosewheel hits.