Safety Pilot Particulars

[flyboycpa]

OK guys and gals,

I'm an instructor, but I only do it occassionally for tailwheel applicants and Globe Swift-specific transition training. Therefore, I'm not able to keep my nose in the FARs and remember well enough to quote it like some of your all are.

I had a person ask me if he was legal to use his Private Pilot-ASEL buddy as a safety pilot in the Arrow even though he (the buddy/safety pilot) is not complex-endorsed.

I told him that his safety pilot needed the complex endorsement. My reason was that, as safety pilot, he is PIC, but how can he be PIC if not endorsed? I don't think he can.

If you all can help (not in the form of opinions-I have plenty of those) with quotes of applicable FARs.

thanks in advance,
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[iflyabeech]

Actually 91.109 (b) (1) states only that "the other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."

It talks about category and class rating but says nothing of endorsements. The pilot manipulating the controls is PIC.
There are instances in which the safety pilot could also log PIC, if not all the time he was acting as PIC: (If the safety pilot was instrument rated, the FP was not, and they were flying on an IFR flight plan.) (If the safety pilot was endorsed to fly that kind (high performance/complex/high altitude/tailwheel) of aircraft and the FP was not.)

61.51 (e) states that a pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which the person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.

Again, it says nothing of endorsements. And I am getting a bit off of your subject!

Hope this helps!

 

[A Squared]

I told him that his safety pilot needed the complex endorsement. My reason was that, as safety pilot, he is PIC, but how can he be PIC if not endorsed? I don't think he can.

THere's the flaw in your thinking, the safety pilot is not necessarily the PIC ... he *could* be the PIC if so designated by prior agreement, but the fact that he is safety pilot does not automatically make him PIC, nor does he *need* to be Now, in the case of a safety pilot who doesn't have the proper endorsements, the safety pilot may not act as PIC, but that doesn't prohibit him from acting as safety pilot. There is no requirement to be qualified as PIC in the airplane, you only need to have the apropriate category and class ratings for the aircraft. An endorsement is not a rating, a rating is printed on your certificate, an endorsement is in your logbook. This distinction is supported by FAA chief counsel legal interpretations.

The regulation which specifies a safety pilot is 91.109, take a look at it. here's the relevant line from 91.109(b) " No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless (1) the other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who poseses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings approapriate to the aircraft being flown."

Notice that the only requirements are for "category and class ratings" there are no requirements for endorsements nor that the safety pilot be qualified to act as PIC.

The only other requirements in this paragraph are operational requirements and are not relevant to the qualifications of the safety pilot.

edit: oops looks like I fly a beech beat me to the punch....we're saying essentially the same thing though.

 

[TRLpilot]

sorry to hi-jack your thread flyboycpa, but i have sort of a reverse situation that i am curious about.

i am a SEL pilot without a high performance or complex endorsement. the other day i flew with a friend in his comanche and i was the sole manipulator of the controls for the entire flight. is there anyway i can log this time without the endorsements?

 

[nosehair]

"Logging" PIC

Yes, you can log all the time you are sole manipulator of the controls of any "Airplane Single-Engine Land", if that is what is printed on your FAA Pilot Certificate under "Ratings". That is what is meant by the word "ratings" in 61.51(e). Personally, I think the crafters of the regulation meant that the word "rating" would be obviously understood to mean "properly endorsed and able to act as PIC", but the warped, legal, and self-centerd minds of the current crop of pilot wannabe's have construed it to be in it's strict black-and-white word "rating" as seen on the pilot certificate, so they can log PIC when they're not.

 

[flyboycpa]

Thanks to all

Thanks again,

I didn't have the reg in front of me to read, but with you guys referring to it, you are all obviously correct.

It references nothing about endorsements, so it looks like my buddy is OK.

fly safe,
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