RVSM and future of corporate....

[Palerider957]

Question for the board.

RVSM is going to be mandatory what, two years from now? Can anyone tell me what exactly is required to satisfy this requirement--I know a second air data computer, altimeter/autopilot that can hold alt. within something like 25 feet, and more. I've heard numbers around $200K to get to compliance. I think GPWS/TAWS is also going to be required, or something like that.

More questions, what will this do the people who opertate Lear 25's, 35., Citation II's, and the like? Are you going to be required to fly below FL290, or will their be a waiver?

I ask this as my friends company is contemplating purchase of a Citaiton II, I can only think there will be more of these types of A/C for sale as the RVSM deadline approaches.

Any info would be appreciated.

 

[CatYaaak]

Question for the board.

Any info would be appreciated.

The best resource for you friend's questions would be the NBAA. The organization and it's members/managers can offer great information on these issues, since it affects them directly.

 

[GIVJoc]

DRVSM starts December 2004 and a large number of smaller operators are upset with the FAA and the overall required cost of DRVSM compliance.

There will be no waivers for older jets according to NBAA, the Lears and Citations you present will (either) have to pony up the estimated $175,000 to $300,000 range per airplane to operate within the DRVSM block (FL290 to FL410 Inclusive) or pound sand. Plus I think it takes like a month or so for the upgrade, so factor that into the overall cost of the certification as well, lost revenue for charter ops, extra expenses for corporate ops who’ll need to charter supplemental lifting.

Essentially the older jets are being regulated out of service and the impact on operators who use King Airs and other turboprops is yet to be seen.

I flew a Cheyenne way back when and we routinely climbed well above FL290 and ran with the best of them, winds were good and fuel burn was great as a result of that we could routinely make Little Rock, Memphis and Atlanta from Tucson and Las Vegas with four passengers and baggage.

If I’m not mistaken there may very well NOT be any RVSM-compliance solutions for older jets, I know such Lears as the 23/24/25 do not have one.

Also I have read that money from the Aviation Trust Fund might be used to subsidize equipment costs for small businesses also as an alternative to DRVSM ATC equipment be upgraded to monitor aircraft altitude more precisely, thereby putting the cost burden on the FAA instead of individual operators.

Fat chance in either case… IMHO

The ATC unions railroaded a call by NBAA for a phased in approach to DRVSM, they said it would wreak havoc on the ATC system.

It will be interesting to see just how DRSVM is received over here. In Europe as well as over the Atlantic it is working well with few bumps. European RVSM is covered ad nauseam by the big guns in all their International courses, which is good.

If all the business operators really wanted to put the brakes on DRVSM over here all that would be required is for the CEO’s, CFO’s, COO’s, private owners and company board members to start letting the campaign contributions dry up to the powers that be and tell them why… miraculously, over night the FAA would change it’s mind and rethink its approach to a drop dead date and look at a phased in approach or some type of assistance to the smaller operators maybe even a waiver altogether.


Having said all that, personally… six or one half dozen, it’s all the same to me.

GIV

 

[Palerider957]

CatYaak and GV:

Thanks for your posts. A question for you guys. With RVSM coming there will be a lot of NON-RVSM A/C for sale, probably at some real bargains. Any reccomendations in the Citation II, Lear 35 range??

Thanks...

 

[jeb]

Just got quotes on a Citation Jet and Citation V on RVSM upgrade cost: 525 about 75,000 and 125-130.000 for the V. These are quotes from Cessna. The older 500's may need to replace the auto-pilots and this will increase the cost to about 225,000 or greater. As for a bargin on airplanes that don't meet rvsm, I wouldn't recommend it to the owners. How much would your operating cost increase keeping these jets FL290 and below.

 

[LR25]

I not sure if I would count the 30 series Lears in with the likes of the 20 series.

The 30 series are pretty descent airplanes and I'm sure operators and most likely corporate ops would gladly convert the aircraft.

The 20 series will most likely be a different story, but there are still alot out there and some will undoubtedly be converted.

There no way in a sane persons mind though to operate any jet at 290 and below, ecspecially 20 series Lears.

 

[Palerider957]

Thanks for everyones responses:

What I should have clarified in my earlier post, my friend would be looking for an inexpensive aircraft that could be retrofitted with the RVSM kits.

We we're thinking there will be a lot of aircraft for sale WITHOUT RVSM, as people don't want to put the money into them. You say the Lear 23,24,25 series will be excluded? But the 35's will be good. What about Falcons, and the whole Citation line? Any reccomendations with which would be the easiest to refit?

Thanks!

 

[GIVJoc]

Having no experience with the slowtations and only a brief run with a frog jet, I’d have to toss my vote behind the LR-35.

The 20 series Lears are three hr. birds max, the 35 is a 5 hr. bird this at normal weights normal altitudes.

I have no idea how much extra weight the RVSM package will add to the airframe, so any loss of endurance from a 20 series would be very noticeable while a 15 to even a 30 minute loss of fuel from 35 would be acceptable.

I’d vote for the 35 or if you can find one a good 36.

Have you looked into a Westwind? Maybe LR25 can shear some light on that for you?

GIV

 

[Rick1128]

TCAS II will be required for DRVSM. It is also likely the EGPWS will be required. The quotes I have put TCAS II (Rev 7) installations from $110K to 160K. Depending on the aircraft. Then add the RVSM mods. There are RVSM mods approved for the LR31/35/36, DA20, HS125 and I understand the WW. I understand that mods are in the works for the LR20's and early CE500's.

As for T/P's, FL290 and below will not hurt them. Beech has a RVSM kit for the KA200/300/350, but I haven't heard of anyone taking them up on it. The one operator I talked with said that it wasn't worth the price.

As for performance, when I talked with the Falcon folks they said the mod added just over 100 pounds and there was no change in performance. And their aircraft was moded to international standards.

As for the early CE500's and Lear 20's it really comes down to if a mod is approved and how much. If it comes down to a $200K to 300K mod, I believe that you will see many of them moded. The reason is that you can not replace them for what it cost you. You have to put the numbers together. You have a 500K aircraft and the mod costs you 300K. Your cost is now 800K. The problem is that a Lear 35 is a 1.2M aircraft plus 200K for the mod equals 1.4M. The numbers don't make sense.

Palerider, you need to have your friend come up with what he needs and wants in an aircraft. Then work up his budgets. His getting budget and his running budget. That may give you more ideas on where to look. Different aircraft have different strong points. There is no sense getting a LR35 of the man wants to have a potty and be able to stand up. The aircraft market is real soft right now and not just because of RVSM.

The screaming has been going on for some time. But the airlines are in the process of upgrading and the major companies already have most of their aircraft RVSM compliant or are in the process. And the little guys don't have a big enough voice. Dispite NATA and NBAA.

 

[501261]

TCAS II will be required for DRVSM. It is also likely the EGPWS will be required. The quotes I have put TCAS II (Rev 7) installations from $110K to 160K. Depending on the aircraft. Then add the RVSM mods.

TCAS II? Is that a new requirement? I know Rev. 7 is required in Europe, but I haven't heard about a TCAS requirement for Domestic RVSM.

Rick, please tell me that was a typo. I've just submitted our budget to corporate and it doesn't include changing our TCAS I's to II's!