RJDC 04/30/05 Update

[braveheart]

RJDC Update
April 30, 2005

This update covers the on-going changes in our dynamic industry, including:

1. ALPA Exposes its Vulnerability on 90-Seat Issue, but Ignores Reasons Why
2. ALPA’s “Legacy” Carriers Face New Wave of Concessionary Bargaining
3. Northwest MEC Reaffirms Claim to all 70-seat Flying
4. Express Jet Pilots Unilaterally Restricted by ALPA to 50-Seat Jets
5. Mainline Small Jet Restrictions Give Birth to yet another “Regional” Alter Ego
6. ALPA’s Strategic Plan Ignores Union’s Failures and Endorses Current Scope Practices
7. Small Jet Operators Flex Financial Muscles
8. Commentary: Take a Walk in Our Shoes

Link: http://www.rjdefense.com/2005/043005up.pdf

 

[~~~^~~~]

Good update!

 

[328dude]

Once again.

 

[Rocking M]

RJDC is misguided. Quit lowering job expectations for regional pilots or at least those that might have a chance of making it to a major.

 

[General Lee]

It is time for those lazy RJDC pilots to quit thinking about bringing DOWN aircraft from mainline. Instead, why don't you try to get an interview at CAL? They are hiring..... Oh, that's right, you MAY lose your WEEKENDS OFF AND those 4 weeks of vacation that you spend drinking multiple beers while golfing at Myrtle Beach..... NERDS! If you want to fly larger jets, try out for Continental and quit crying. Ford and Lawson don't want to be FO's again----that is obvious. They haven't been FO's since they were on the Bandit right out of highschool....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Nindiri]

Drinking "multiple bears"? Sounds frightening.

 

[General Lee]

I was doing that while typing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[91100 100 set]

They haven't been FO's since they were on the Bandit right out of highschool....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Ouch, but he's right and I'm glad somebody said it. I know some types like that.

 

[saabservant]

The Mainline Job Lottery

Not one to support this rjdc stuff, but really, when are (a few) of you guys at mainline going to stop telling me to "get on at mainline" where the career is real? So we are supposed to settle for substandard conditions at the regional because it is only temporary? For whom, and how many? Are the rest of us to be written off as just losers who could'nt make it, were not good enough, especially because of civilian training and experience? Respectfully, SCREW YOU. This outsourcing was started by your own peers and predecessors at MAINLINE, because they would not stand up to mgmt. and protect the whole of mainline, or the profession itself. All to "protect my pension".

Have you looked at the numbers? How many white, male, civilian experienced pilots is a mainline going to hire, if they hire 450 a year? From how many QUALIFIED applications? I can show you a list as long as my arm of pilots at my airline who applied, interviewed, and were turned down during the last hiring cycle. Good people, all of them.
After saving who knows how many slots for affirmative action, and then for guys from the squadrons (who are "preferred" by human resources) the numbers turn the process into a lottery. They simply can't hire all the qualified, experienced people, even if they interview well. You just put yourself out there, and hope to get a little lucky.

I apologize for a little ranting, but can you argue that this is not the situation, so that we need to improve the quality of life for ALL pilots within a line, and on an alpa list? I do not want to "take flying from mainline", but you know what?
Mgmt. can only give me the flying that YOU give away in concessions and outsourcing!! Makes me want to get you drunk, and leave you in a terminal with your pants off (hat on, of course).

Fraternally Yours.....

 

[180ToTheMarker]

I assume most RJDC guys want bigger planes at their airline because they know they could never pass the interview at a major.

 

[JI Gone OH]

Ford and Lawson don't want to be FO's again----that is obvious. They haven't been FO's since they were on the Bandit right out of highschool....


Bye Bye--General Lee

What does Lawson have to do with the RJDC? Get with the program dude, I am so tired of your ignorance and incorrect information. We could be talking about Singapore Airlines and you would find a way to spin Lawson into the picture. It's getting old. Take your beef with him somewhere else already, would ya'.

And no, I am not in the RJDC!

 

[JI Gone OH]

Oh, that's right, you MAY lose your WEEKENDS OFF AND those 4 weeks of vacation that you spend drinking multiple beers while golfing at Myrtle Beach..... NERDS!

Bye Bye--General Lee

I would think that 4598 posts on Flight Info constitutes the true definition of a NERD!

 

[rgd]

I would think that 4598 posts on Flight Info constitutes the true definition of a NERD!

That is WAY to funny. Really sad, but funny. JI Gone OH thanks for making me laugh. General, thanks for giving all of us someone to laugh at.

 

[jbDC9]

Not one to support this rjdc stuff, but really, when are (a few) of you guys at mainline going to stop telling me to "get on at mainline" where the career is real? So we are supposed to settle for substandard conditions at the regional because it is only temporary?

I apologize for a little ranting, but can you argue that this is not the situation, so that we need to improve the quality of life for ALL pilots within a line, and on an alpa list? I do not want to "take flying from mainline", but you know what? Mgmt. can only give me the flying that YOU give away in concessions and outsourcing!! Makes me want to get you drunk, and leave you in a terminal with your pants off (hat on, of course).

I don't exactly agree with the guys that say "just get on at mainline and all will be well", since there's not room at mainline for every pilot out there, and getting hired on at a major is quite a crapshoot, but... I don't think mainline guys and scope clauses are the cause of substandard conditions at the "regionals". Since it appears that many people are staying at the regional level for extended periods, maybe the regional MECs need to concentrate on better pay and workrules to make QOL a bit better. The regionals have long been a stepping stone with low pay and QOL, and it was okay since no one stayed around long enough to care about it... but that time is long gone.

I haven't paid too much attention to the RJDC stuff, but I read this latest update on their site... and I think they need to stop smoking crack. They're clueless idiots from what I read. The two paragraphs about ExpressJet are a prime example;

"... members at XJT found out the hard way that when ALPA's mainline interests say "job security" they really mean "more small jet restrictions". This was the case as ALPA once again permitted it mainline interests, CAL, to unilaterally restrict another "regional" ALPA pilot group to a/c with 50 or fewer seats." "... it would have been impossible for ALPA's "mainline" pilots to conceal their anti-small jet bargaining agenda."

Well duhh, guess what morons? We need more small jet restrictions! It's called job security for mainline guys. And why would mainline want to conceal our anti-small jet bargaining agenda? It's no secret, we don't want any more RJs. Very soon XJT will have 274 RJs, many of which are taking flying away from mainline. Granted, this is due to our lousy scope clause and greedy management from a few years back, but seems to me 274 jets is quite enough. No, XJT doesn't need to fly 70-90 seaters for CAL. That is mainline flying.

 

[crashpad]

I got news for you, there's very little room in this industry for RJs'!

 

[FlyComAirJets]

We need more small jet restrictions! It's called job security for mainline guys. And why would mainline want to conceal our anti-small jet bargaining agenda? It's no secret, we don't want any more RJs. Very soon XJT will have 274 RJs, many of which are taking flying away from mainline. Granted, this is due to our lousy scope clause and greedy management from a few years back, but seems to me 274 jets is quite enough. No, XJT doesn't need to fly 70-90 seaters for CAL. That is mainline flying.

That is so revealing that I have to repeat it, "It's no secret, we don't want any more RJs." Clearly, you have that seperartist mentality that on the one hand you do not want to have part of regional flying -- the pilots or their aircraft, yet at the same time you seem to think that you are devinely ordained to lord over them. Well sorry pal, it's not going to work like that.

Really, you flatter yourself, not taking credit for this but blaming it on "lousy scope" and "greedy management." Who enigneered the distruction of an industry-leading flow thru and splitting what once was a joint MEC. Hint: Can't blame management for those divisive moves.

Don't want to conceal your "anti-small jet bargaining agenda?" Perhaps that is why it's called the RJ Defense Coalition. What silly pilot-bashing games your MEC wants to play is your business, but when MY union uses MY union dues to attack MY job, I am going to take umbrage with that. More importantly, I am going to take it up with MY union either through internal processes or the courts. Have a nice day.

 

[General Lee]

That is so revealing that I have to repeat it, "It's no secret, we don't want any more RJs." Clearly, you have that seperartist mentality that on the one hand you do not want to have part of regional flying -- the pilots or their aircraft, yet at the same time you seem to think that you are devinely ordained to lord over them. Well sorry pal, it's not going to work like that.

Really, you flatter yourself, not taking credit for this but blaming it on "lousy scope" and "greedy management." Who enigneered the distruction of an industry-leading flow thru and splitting what once was a joint MEC. Hint: Can't blame management for those divisive moves.

Don't want to conceal your "anti-small jet bargaining agenda?" Perhaps that is why it's called the RJ Defense Coalition. What silly pilot-bashing games your MEC wants to play is your business, but when MY union uses MY union dues to attack MY job, I am going to take umbrage with that. More importantly, I am going to take it up with MY union either through internal processes or the courts. Have a nice day.

If you threw in an app at Continental and got hired, the RJDC would be the LAST thing you were thinking about. How did ALPA do with Expressjet's contract? I think they got them a good one considering today's atmosphere. But, you don't want to agree to that either. Throw in an app at CAL and everything will change---overnight.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Throw in an app at CAL and everything will change---overnight.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I did and it didn't. The problem of alter ego substitute flying still must be dealt with - and ALPA is not getting the job done. If anything, the RJDC effort means more to me if I were holding a vulnerable seniority number at a "mainline" carrier. Nobody has a sustainable operation right now, not even Southwest once the fuel hedges are done. The economics are going to force massive changes in the airlines' organizational structures and probably a lot of consolidation. I do not want to travel these rough seas with a union afraid to use its merger and fragmentation policy. I don't trust leadership that locks nearly half the crew out of the representational process and do not want to negotiate a sea full of icebergs using a moral compass that seems to always point to "divide and restrict."

You might can call the RJDC guys a lot of things, but "lazy?" How is working 12 to 18 hours on just about every one of your off days to restore your profession "lazy." I am just amazed at the effort that has gone into the RJDC and after five years, the work continues to be done on the back of a dozen or so guys that are on the front lines, supported by a couple thousand pilots who support the work financially.

When you and I are flying in the back of one of CHQ's E190 to our job interviews with Jet Blue, remind me about those lazy RJDC pukes - will ya?

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

I did and it didn't. The problem of alter ego substitute flying still must be dealt with - and ALPA is not getting the job done. If anything, the RJDC effort means more to me if I were holding a vulnerable seniority number at a "mainline" carrier. Nobody has a sustainable operation right now, not even Southwest once the fuel hedges are done. The economics are going to force massive changes in the airlines' organizational structures and probably a lot of consolidation. I do not want to travel these rough seas with a union afraid to use its merger and fragmentation policy. I don't trust leadership that locks nearly half the crew out of the representational process and do not want to negotiate a sea full of icebergs using a moral compass that seems to always point to "divide and restrict."

You might can call the RJDC guys a lot of things, but "lazy?" How is working 12 to 18 hours on just about every one of your off days to restore your profession "lazy." I am just amazed at the effort that has gone into the RJDC and after five years, the work continues to be done on the back of a dozen or so guys that are on the front lines, supported by a couple thousand pilots who support the work financially.

When you and I are flying in the back of one of CHQ's E190 to our job interviews with Jet Blue, remind me about those lazy RJDC pukes - will ya?

~~~^~~~

As far as average schedules, RJ or regional pilots are NOT lazy---they fly a heck of a lot more than I do. I understand that, I flew props out of MDW in the early to mid 90's and I have been there. When I said "lazy" I meant that they were lazy in getting their stuff out and trying to better their lives (supposedly) by going to a larger carrier and getting better pay and benefits, and flying larger aircraft along the way. That is the way it goes. If a pilot loves his weekend off schedule and his 10 choices for a monthly bid, and wants to keep that type of situation, then don't complain. Stay there, keep the great schedule, and watch the larger planes taxi by. Trying to bring those larger planes DOWN to your airline to get the "best of both worlds" is WRONG, and LAZY. Got it yet?

AS far as CHQ and the E190s, you and I both know that Wexford bought into that agreement with the investment into ailing USAir, and that doesn't make it right, but they are owners now and can do what they want. If Mesa also adds a large investment again, they may choose to put Mesa 737s into PIT. Does that make it right for ASA to do the same? I don't think so.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyChicaga]

No, XJT doesn't need to fly 70-90 seaters for CAL. That is mainline flying.

I think you'll find many pilots at XJT who agree with you. Their only fear is that CAL will get the 70-90 seat flying, reduce the 50-seat flying, and leave the XJT pilots to fend for themselves... NOT at CAL. There is a strong sentiment at XJT that CAL pilots don't want us there.

I personally am 100% for 90-seaters at CAL. But I also don't want to lose my job because I flew a 50-seat jet and we are not welcome at mainline. After all, when CAL flying was reduced after 9/11 they were professionally welcomed at XJT by the great majority of Express pilots. Yes, CAL flying was reduced and Express flying grew... even though the great majority of furloughs were at XJT due to the 100% flowback provision in the 1 to 3 flowthrough agreement. Should our flying get reduced with CAL acquiring small-jets, I would hope they would remember how the pilots at XJT welcomed them.

I have been greatly disturbed by the trend I have been seeing at the 70 and 90 seat level between mainline and the regionals. I'd really like to see a new precident get set by Continental and Northwest by claiming the 70 and 90-seat flying at mainline, and welcoming their respective Express partners as positions open to fly them. Not to mention raise the standard in terms of wages and work rules for that sized equipment.

I have no support for the RJDC. Nobody can tell me without lying to my face that their goal was to fly a regional jet. Those at this level are stuck here, due to a multitude of reasoning in the "perfect storm" right now in the airline industry. There is no need to fight to keep people down who don't want to stay at the regional level for their careers. For those who do plan to stay, use your energy and leadership to help raise wages and develop competitive work rules at the regional level, instead of trying to gain more flying where we can get paid peanuts and have terrible benefits.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

The Big Picture becomes crystal clear General-style

If you threw in an app at Continental and got hired, the RJDC would be the LAST thing you were thinking about. How did ALPA do with Expressjet's contract? I think they got them a good one considering today's atmosphere. But, you don't want to agree to that either. Throw in an app at CAL and everything will change---overnight.

Let's see if I got this right, get hired by CAL (anyone with a sense of history would understand the irony of that statement) and I would forget about everything overnight because, hey, I GOT MINE! After all, it's ALL ABOUT ME. Is that how you justify yourself? Rather than trying to make your current job a better place to work, just get the 1000 hours of PIC or whatever, and then hasta la vista baby, you are back, back, BACK, OUTTA THERE? Then I would be downright eager to stick it to my former fellow employees.

Uh, no thanks chief.

Oh, and by the way, I think the gutsy pilots at XJet had a teensy weensy bit of responsibility for negotiating their current contract. JMHO.

 

[jbDC9]

That is so revealing that I have to repeat it, "It's no secret, we don't want any more RJs." Clearly, you have that seperartist mentality that on the one hand you do not want to have part of regional flying -- the pilots or their aircraft, yet at the same time you seem to think that you are devinely ordained to lord over them.

Really, you flatter yourself, not taking credit for this but blaming it on "lousy scope" and "greedy management." Who enigneered the distruction of an industry-leading flow thru and splitting what once was a joint MEC. Hint: Can't blame management for those divisive moves.

Don't want to conceal your "anti-small jet bargaining agenda?" Perhaps that is why it's called the RJ Defense Coalition. What silly pilot-bashing games your MEC wants to play is your business, but when MY union uses MY union dues to attack MY job, I am going to take umbrage with that. More importantly, I am going to take it up with MY union either through internal processes or the courts. Have a nice day.

Alrighty then, perhaps I should clarify my position just a wee bit. Actually, I have no need/want to "divinely ordained to lord over them", whatever the hell that means. I don't have a separatist mentality, either. In fact, I'm all in favor of a single seniority list, wouldja believe that?? All CAL flying to be done by CAL pilots, RJ thru 777. Bring on more RJs, but have 'em flown by CAL pilots. Novel idea huh? Staple the XJT guys to the list and we'll all be happy, right? Seriously, I'm all in favor of it, and it seems to me it'd keep management from whipsawing the pilot groups against each other.

Now, having said that, I realize that a SSL just ain't gonna happen. Period. So, here we are, with mainline pilots duking it out with the "regionals". Keep in mind that over that last few years, the regional RJ flying has grown by leaps and bounds, while mainline has been slowly shrinking away... so tell us again how the big bad mainline guys are holding you back?? If you want to fly bigger/better/more jets, Comair should get away from the DL codeshare and start up it's own, separate airline, doing it's own flying... kinda like Independence Air is having such success with. Either that, or do like General Lee says, get hired on somewhere that flies bigger/better/more jets. Otherwise, quit whining about it.

Funny though, dont'cha think, that you perceive that your job is under attack, while the mainline guys feel that their jobs are under attack? So, which is it? Who's right, who's wrong? If you feel the need to protect your job, then it must be okay for the mainline guys to protect theirs as well, right? Sounds fair to me.

 

[General Lee]

Let's see if I got this right, get hired by CAL (anyone with a sense of history would understand the irony of that statement) and I would forget about everything overnight because, hey, I GOT MINE! After all, it's ALL ABOUT ME. Is that how you justify yourself? Rather than trying to make your current job a better place to work, just get the 1000 hours of PIC or whatever, and then hasta la vista baby, you are back, back, BACK, OUTTA THERE? Then I would be downright eager to stick it to my former fellow employees.

Uh, no thanks chief.

Oh, and by the way, I think the gutsy pilots at XJet had a teensy weensy bit of responsibility for negotiating their current contract. JMHO.

Ah yes, you would change, overnight baby! But, you enjoy weekends off and 4 weeks in MYR a year playing golf and swigging beer, so you probably won't throw in an app......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Ah yes, you would change, overnight baby! But, you enjoy weekends off and 4 weeks in MYR a year playing golf and swigging beer, so you probably won't throw in an app......


Bye Bye--General Lee

No matter how strong the Kool Aide is, I'm still not drinking it. So wrong on so many levels...

 

[spinproof]

It is time for those lazy RJDC pilots to quit thinking about bringing DOWN aircraft from mainline. Instead, why don't you try to get an interview at CAL? They are hiring..... Oh, that's right, you MAY lose your WEEKENDS OFF AND those 4 weeks of vacation that you spend drinking multiple beers while golfing at Myrtle Beach..... NERDS! If you want to fly larger jets, try out for Continental and quit crying. Ford and Lawson don't want to be FO's again----that is obvious. They haven't been FO's since they were on the Bandit right out of highschool....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Amazing how one that persists in having an opinion on almost everything results to name calling when there is no evidence to back that opinion up.

 

[General Lee]

Amazing how one that persists in having an opinion on almost everything results to name calling when there is no evidence to back that opinion up.

Think I'm wrong? How can I prove that individual pilots are lazy? I can't, I don't even know them. But, there are plenty of senior pilots that for some reason don't want to move over and up to a larger airline. Do they just love 7 day legs on the CRJ and lower pay than mainline rates? I guess they do. Sounds like they don't want to give up their seniority, and would rather try to bring DOWN larger aircraft to their airline---so they can keep what they have. That is LAZY. Name calling? Nah, just a direct hit. If you stay at your regional for a reason, try not to bring down the rest of the industry by bringing DOWN mainline sized aircraft.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

If Mesa also adds a large investment again, they may choose to put Mesa 737s into PIT. Does that make it right for ASA to do the same? I don't think so.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General : Your question might be prophetic.

Like I have said - you mainline guys need the RJDC to prevail worse than we do. By the time you figure out what inclusive scope means ( unity ) the horse may be too far gone to get it back in the barn.

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

General : Your question might be prophetic.

Like I have said - you mainline guys need the RJDC to prevail worse than we do. By the time you figure out what inclusive scope means ( unity ) the horse may be too far gone to get it back in the barn.

~~~^~~~

You are speaking like Dan Rather. I have no idea what you are talking about. Kolschak stated that DCI would NOT get anything larger than 70 seaters. You haven't brought up any proof that they will, and the guy incharge told us as a group that they will not. He must be lying..... Anything you or I say about this subject is pure speculation.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Huh ? General - I was quoting you....

If you have no idea what I was talking about it is because you had no idea what you were talking about, which is what I've been trying to say for years

 

[737 Pylt]

General : Your question might be prophetic.

Like I have said - you mainline guys need the RJDC to prevail worse than we do. ~~~^~~~

Now That was funny!!!!
737