RJ Vs. Alpa

[surplus1]

Even after strike, you guys are still cheap labor.

Yes, we are "cheaper" labor. Perhaps you feel that if our airplanes were flown by mainline pilots we would become "expensive" labor overnight. If that's your belief it simply reflects your inexperience.

We aren't the lowest bidders (yet). The pressure to move flying to the lowest bidder is real (witness Delta's most recent addition of a contract with CHQ to replace us at MCO).

Economics will ultimately determine who flies what. As the "lowest bidder" airlines continue to lower their bids, they will eventually be unable to cover their costs and will cease to exist. Their flying will then transfer back to those that remain financially viable and equilibrium will return. The same rules apply to the highest bidders. They have priced themselves out of the market (USAir being the best example). Others are doing the same and losing flying as a result. Eventually they will be forced to lower their bids too or continue to shrink as they lose the flying. The bidding war that I have repeatedly predicted will ensue. Actually, it has already begun.

When American attempted to keep Eagle from getting the 70-seat CRJ they entered into a TA (later rejected by AA pilots) that included pay scales for the CL-700. Their proposed pay rates were substantially lower than those put on the table by Comair pilots for the same equipment. The AA pilots didn't reject the TA due to the pay scales. There was other content to which they objected. The point is, that group of "mainline pilots" lowered the pay scale in an effort to take the flying from Eagle.

Delta already has hundreds of regional jets flying at the mainline. We are sitting in their cockpit seats. The only reason we are "separate" is because Delta pilots wanted it that way. The mainline pilot (not only at Delta) and their unions (ALPA and APA) created the exemptions to Scope that make subcontracting possible. They also rejected the opportunity (when it was there) to get all jet flying on one list. That was long before Comair had 100 RJs. Instead they went for the "scope" that you and others advocate. It hasn't worked. The scope has not prevented the proliferation of RJs and it isn't going to.

Look at COEX/ExpressJet... new route EWR-OKC. What the hell?? That's half across the country. But sure, the captain and the FO combined make less than $80k. Now you're talking about adding 90 seat RJ's. I mean really.... look at NWA's DC-9's and their payscales, and then look at the most you could get at a "regional" flying 70 or 90 seat RJ's.

I do look at that. So what? Until the recent IPO attempting to spin off XJT, COEX was a wholly owned subsidiary of CAL and fully integrated with it. The IACP (former union of CAL/COEX pilots) made no effort to integrate the seniority lists of CAL/COEX and they had the opportunity more than once. The current union ALPA, is opposed to that idea. CAL has "scope" --- it is useless. NWA pilots have refused any attempt to integrate Mesaba or Express1. They won't even help Mesaba get the flow-through it has wanted for years. The mainline pilots have caused the problem. Now they will have to live with it or attempt the only remedy that will work and that is NOT more scope.

RJ's in regional carriers are cheapening the profession, and RJDC is a cancer that needs to go away.

That's nonsense and reflects your inexperience. You're just repeating the myopic philosophy of mainline pilots whose MEC's and labor unions created the problem. Subcontracting should never have been allowed but, it was. Now that it is there, don't expect regional pilots to give up their jobs to cure the past mistakes of mainline pilots. Mainline pilot groups will not be allowed to put regional pilots on the street to make up for their own past folly. The RJDC will prevent that. It is not a cancer but a potential cure.

Noticing your flight time Surplus, 25k hours? Are you mad perhaps because you couldn't get hired anywhere? Is that why you are so adamant about this RJDC garbage? Just curious....

My personal background is not relevant to the debate and neither is yours. You should not get personal when you don't have answers and can't convince your opponent. However, since you did, I will satisfy your so-called "curiosity". 1) 25K is considerably below the actual number. 2) This isn't my first job but it will be my last. 3) As long ago as 1972, I was captain of a 4-engine jet transport (707) flying international; probably before you were born and certainly before you flew anything for a living. It wasn't my "first jet". 4) I've never had a DUI or any other criminal record. 5) I have a degree. 6) I was a military pilot before I became a civilian pilot. 7) There were some places where I didn't get hired, others where I chose not to apply and others where I did get hired, including my present pilot group. 8) I support the RJDC because the cause is just, my union is wrong and I want the errors to be corrected. Now if you have any more questions, ask them.

Meanwhile, I suggest that you argue your points and defend your views to your hearts content, just like I do. I haven't attacked you personally and I won't, but when you attack me personally I will defend myself. Avoid attempts at personal slurs. They accomplish nothing and make you look like the kid you are. When you've been in the business long enough to understand it, then you can question the backgrounds of pilots with whom you disagree. Until then, stick to the issues and refrain from the attempts to demean others personally.

 

[Freight Dog]

Surplus,

You've just shown me why you back RJDC. An old guy not going anywhere. You and I have different priorities. This "kid" doesn't want to retire from ComASA, even if you as an old salt do.

As I said, I've seen what a firm scope can do for a mainline group and how it affects its regional affiliate, and in my case, I like it. It boils down to management and how they run things.

You are right, US Air priced themselves out, and they'll cease to exist most likely.

As for the lowest-bidder... as an "old experienced salt" perhaps you can tell me why do you have your flying farmed out to another airline? Now I see so many of you pissed off that MCO flying is gonna go away to a lower bidder. Isn't this exactly what's been going on with mainline losing flying to its regional affiliates? Now it's trickled down to the regional level and you don't like it... hmmm. You reap what you sow.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Frieght dog:

So explain - how exactly does more restrictive scope make it profitable to operate a 737 with only 30 seats filled?

The RJ is not a replacement aircraft for current generation mainline narrowbody jets. The seat mile cost (which I posted on the board a couple weeks ago) show that any airline management will upsize as soon as a route has sufficient traffic.

Without RJ's Delta would simply be pulling out of many markets after 9-11. However, having smaller capacity jets allows Delta to preserve their route structure so that mainline can come back faster as loads and revenue return.

If you leave the economics out of it - on a pure service replacement basis - the RJ is to a 737 what a 767 is to a 747. The introduction of the 767 certainly resulted in much less 747, L1011 and DC-10 operation across the Atlantic. However, more 767's serve the public with greater frequency and to more European destinations making them viable despite the higher CASM's.

I think you misuderstand the RJDC's agenda. First, the issue is representation. ALPA should represent each member equally and fairly. One ALPA member (under the Union's own Constitution and Bylaws) should not be able to negotiate harm to another member.

Certainly this would lead to the current conflict of interest between pilots of different groups inside of one airline (like Delta). However, the union's own Constitution and Bylaws addresses this problem too under the Merger and Fragmentation Policy.

As some Delta pilots now admit, the Delta MEC threatened ALPA when the ASA and Comair pilots applied for a merger. The Delta pilots feared that the Connection guys might get something better than a staple - so Delta ALPA killed the merger. Now we have six groups of pilots performing Delta domestic flying and we are all at eachother's throat over each precious job.

If the RJDC wins, it likely means that the Delta MEC will insist on onelist in order to establish the same control over the Connection pilots that they currently have through abuse of our union's exclusive agent status. Bottom line - All Delta flying performed by Delta pilots.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[skydiverdriver]

Freight Dog,
Well, some of us younger guys are for the rjdc as well, so your theory is not correct.

Comair is not losing flying in MCO. We are losing a base. We are growing and expanding, and hiring. The person who is losing flying in MCO is Delta Mainline. We are trying to get together with them to prevent this from happening, despite what they have been told to believe. If you choose to think otherwise, that is your option.

 

[skydiverdriver]

FD,
What you gather rjdc is about, is not what it's about. I suggest you read the very informative posts by Surplus1, and then you might understand what it's about. We are not against you, we are for you.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FD,
What you gather rjdc is about, is not what it's about. I suggest you read the very informative posts by Surplus1, and then you might understand what it's about. We are not against you, we are for you.

Actually, I would suggest to FreightDog that he reads the lawsuit itself. Concentrate on the relief section. It will become abundantly clear what it's about.

 

[Freight Dog]

FDJ,

I'm looking for a lawsuit, and all I see are RJDC "updates" on the site... can you give me a link to the actual lawsuit?


Thanks!

FD

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FD,
I am not too good at this computer stuff! To get to the lawsuit, go to the "downloads" section of the rjdc website. Scan down until you get to the link for the lawsuit. It is roughly halfway down the page. You can access it via Adobe Acrobat or MS word.

Thank you for taking the time to read it. It is always nice to see a regional guy appreciate the value of scope. I felt the same way as you when I was on your side of the fence, and I still do. Good luck.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Yes, please do read the lawsuit. However, keep in mind that it's a negotiating point, and nobody ever gets everything they ask for. Just as if you had read what any pilots were asking for in negotiations, you would think they were crazy or very greedy. However, what they actually get might seem more reasonable. Perhaps we will have to wait until it's over to see what is really going on.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

You've just shown me why you back RJDC. An old guy not going anywhere. You and I have different priorities. This "kid" doesn't want to retire from ComASA, even if you as an old salt do.

As anticipated, you "heard" but you didn't "listen". The issues have nothing to do with your priorities vs. my priorities and nothing to do with where you would like to retire vs. where I will retire.

I'm all in favor of your being able to get the cream puff major airline job that you want. I've had it myself and it is very nice. The question is, how do you get there tomorrow. More Scope of the wrong kind isn't going to do it for you.

The "best scope" in the industry (acording to the mainline gurus and those of you that sniff around behind them) is at USAirways. The only thing it has accomplished is to help their bad management put their airline under. They are now desperately trying to eliminate that perfect scope in the hope of survival.

If tomorrow the wish of the Delta pilots were to come true and all the RJs at Comair and ASA were parked, the only thing it would accomplish is to put another 2000 of them on the streets and the Company in danger of bankruptcy.

The airline must be able to operate the most efficient equipment available to do a particular job. Being forced by Scope to use a 737 with 35 passengers on board is a recepie for economic disaster.

FDJ tells us, correctly, that there is nothing in his contract that prevents the company from operating RJs "at the mainline". What he does NOT tell us is what concessions he is willing to make so that it becomes economically feasible to do so. I believe there would not be much difference between the contract that would apply to a mainline operated RJ and the better regional contracts that exist today. Mainline pilots aren't willing to accept that and that's why they don't fly any RJs.

Of all the "real" major airlines that operate today (sorry, but Aloha isn't one of them) there is only one (1) that doesn't own and operate at least one "regional subsidiary" and that's UAL.

AA owns AE; DAL owns CMR & ASA, NWA owns EX1, CAL owns COEX, AAA owns ALG, PDT, PSA. Even little ALA owns Horizon. USAirways is the only one who's subsidiaries don't fly jets, and whose "scope" has limited the subcontractors to 70 RJs. Itself not much more than a regional carrier, U has been hurt severely by this flawed idea and misapplied scope.

United has "scope". In their last contract they had to relax it substantially and they did. As we write, they are not enforcing even the relaxed scope. If they did, ACA and SKYW and AWA would each have to park a number of their RJs and furlough the pilots. The follow up to that would be more furloughs at UAL.

All the majors I mentioned are in fact operating regional jets, just like FDJ says they can. They are just not flying them with mainline pilots. If they were, the "high paying jobs" that everyone wants, including you, would still not be in the RJs.

If the RJ pilots were all on the same list as the mainline pilots, the only thing your "new" job at the mainline would guarantee you, that you don't have today, is the eventual access to the bigger equipment without having to change employers. It would not produce any fantastic change in compensation or work rules.

If instead of being "scoped out" by Aloha you were on the same list, there would still be furloughs like there were. You would be the furloughed pilot instead of the more senior Aloha pilot. The junior pilots at Aloha who did get furloughed would be flying those Dash 8s (as they should be). The only thing there "scope" has done is keep them out of aiplanes their company operates and give you their job.

That is exactly what "scope" at Delta has done. The airline (Delta) is operating and owns hundreds of RJs. What FDJ doesn't admit is the RJs are already at the mainline . He just doesn't get to fly them.

Adding more "scope" to his contract is not going to eliminate the RJs that Delta already owns and operates. It is too late to do that now and the pilots that already fly them (CMR & ASA) are going to fight for their jobs. We are already doing so. The Company has found its way around the existing Scope. It will do the same tomorrow if that scope follows the same course of trying to keep the RJ from operating.

Do we need Scope at all? H**L yes! However, effective Scope must scope the Company's flying IN, not scope it OUT.

At this stage of the game, the ONLY way to do that is to combine the pilot groups into a single group. Until the mainline pilots recognize that fact, their effort to stop the RJ is doomed to failure.

It will NOT be possible to achieve one seniority list if mainline pilots insist on applying their present contracts to the RJ operations. The Company can't realistically agree to that and never will. Therefore, we the pilots must find a way to do it that merges the lists without merging the contracts.

One of the first things we need to do is stop worrying about pilots that are not yet employed by the Company and take care of the pilots that already are. I don't care if you get a job at my airline tomorrow, if I have to give up my job today to make it happen. My first concern is for current Delta pilots and that includes ASA/CMR.

FDJ and his peers do not consider CMR & ASA pilots to be Delta pilots. While I understand that, I also think it is foolish. We ARE Delta pilots, Delta just calls us something else. It really doesn't matter whether you call us Delta pilots or S**t pilots. What does matter is that we are flying Delta airplanes now and we're on a separate seniority list; divided.

Delta pilots did that to themselves. How? By unsuccessfully attempting to scope us out, instead of scoping us in. It is not having Scope that's bad. The problem is the misapplication of the intent of Scope.

As I said, I've seen what a firm scope can do for a mainline group and how it affects its regional affiliate, and in my case, I like it. It boils down to management and how they run things.

What you're really telling me is that you don't understand what you're seeing. You haven't really grasped the significance of what you think you see so you are misinterpreting its value. You're judging the car by the paint job, when you ought to looking at the engine and the power train.

Aloha pilots needed to put those airplanes that you fly and the pilots that fly them on a single seniority list from day one. Use a supplemental agreement (if necessary) to cover your pay and rules. Instead they created two airlines just like everybody else. As a result, the Company can't fly where it needs to, how it needs to, Aloha pilots that are senior to you are furloughed and you're flying in a seat that should be occupied by a furloughed Aloha pilot. Scope your way or their way makes no sense at all. Scope my way, which is the original way, needs to be restored.

As for the lowest-bidder... as an "old experienced salt" perhaps you can tell me why do you have your flying farmed out to another airline?

Yes I can tell you. It's because the wrong kind of scope is in place at Delta airlines, thanks to Delta pilots and ALPA.

Now I see so many of you pissed off that MCO flying is gonna go away to a lower bidder. Isn't this exactly what's been going on with mainline losing flying to its regional affiliates? Now it's trickled down to the regional level and you don't like it... hmmm. You reap what you sow.

Its happening because ALPA created exemptions to Scope, ALPA permitted subcontracting, ALPA refused to apply its merger policy, and mainline pilots were so intent on not sharing a drinking fountain with regional scum, that they were willing to do without water all together. That may have worked while they had a huge supply of champagne, but now that's run out and the "scum" control the water supply.

Is it the same as the mainline losing flying to regional affiliates. No, it isn't. The mainline never lost any flying to regional affilitates for they did not operate that equipment. Now that the mainline does operate RJs any flying that goes to rjs outside the company is a loss of flying.

CHQ doesn't take any flying from the 737s and DC-9s that Delta operates. It takes fying from the Cl-65s that Delta operates.

When we understand what Scope should do and apply it correctly, its a great thing that we MUST have. When misused, as it has been, it becomes an enemy.