resume question

[need2AV8]

Finishing up resume for a few regionals and I'm trying to figure out the best way to present the gap in employment history while I was earning my pilot cert's & ratings. Should I list "pilot training" in the employment history, or the dates of training under "education" and hope they can figure it out?

Would appreciate your 2 cents.

 

[rvsm410]

Send PM too

Send a PM to "resume writer" here on the boards, Kathy is an HR expert....and well all need more perts!!

She is good!

 

[TonyC]

Re: Send PM too

Send a PM to "resume writer" here on the boards, Kathy is an HR expert....and well all need more perts!!

She is good!

Somewhere we have to draw a line between asking a person to do for free what she does to earn a living. Offering an opinion about a general question - - in public - - is one thing. Asking her for specific help on MY resume via a PM for free is quite another.

Why don't we restrict our requests to this public forum - - keep the questions and responses public and appropriate. Then she's not put in the akward position of answering numerous PMs that might more appropriately be considered consultations.

I'd hate to lose her sage advice around here.

 

[rvsm410]

Never said..

Tony I never said to not pay for the advice he is seeking...possibly have her look at the resume and make other suggestions.....

 

[scubabri]

I would have to agree, Kathy gave me a bunch of advice subsequent to having my resume completely redone, and although I haven't had any job offers as a result, have had several propective employers tell me what a good resume it was.

So, I wouldn't hesitate to ask, nor would I hesitate to use the services that she charges for should the opportunity arise.

my $.02

sb

 

[Future SNA]

A resume is a pretty easy thing to do, there's a lady that gives seminars, think she was in charge of hiring at American for like 30 years, and she's retired now. Anyways, she has a "standard" way that she considers all pilots to do their resumes. it's in Word, uses text boxes, so you can move whatever information you feel is most important to the top, bottom, whatever you like. She gives a real good seminar, you should try to attend one, or find someone who has it, besides me........we're competing for jobs you know!

 

[TIS]

There are really only a few things...

...you need to know about resumes.

First, a resume is a statment of qualification. That's one thing that you need to show on one.

Second, resumes are not well read by those who might do the hiring. They may not even be read by a person! More on that in a second.

Once minimum qualification has been established in the mind of your target, that's as far as a typical chief pilot or D.O. reads at that time. Seen many a chief pilot look at a resume for UNDER 5 seconds to find what they need to see. Naturally, deeper thought ensues if competition is fierce and oppotunities are scarce.

The reason I make this point is that resume mills all basically have one thing in common - they justify their existence by putting a TON of CRAP in your resume - stuff that just doesn't need to be there. The end result is that your resume gets very busy and difficult to read thus making it more difficult to do the quick once-over that it is likely to be given on first inspection.

One more thought on format - if your target employer has a specific style, format or sumbission route (i.e. email or fax) DO WHAT THEY TELL YOU TO DO!!!! Don't listen to anything ANYONE (including myself) recommends in such cases. You can have the best resume $250.00 can buy and it could be worthless if you write a document that's meant for a person and it's scanned by a machine!

Another thing you need to show on your resume is some amount of your employment history. The thing that many folks tend to do is give too much detail which, again, makes for either a single-page resume that's too busy because the typeface has been reduced in size to make it fit on one page, or it produces a document greater than one page in length, which should be avoided.

Ideally, you should show the past 10 years. Quite a few folks can't do that for a wide variety of very acceptable reasons. So, show what you can. They're going to get all your details on an application anyway. They're also going to have you sign releases for every former employer you have so that they can do the background checks.

There are a lot of people out there charging for expert advice on getting hired at the airlines. Most of them are NOT pilots. Some of them are giving good advice but the best advice comes from those who've done it - those who already have the job you want.

As a rule, employment counseling should be regarded as getting another set of eyes and brain cells on YOUR situation. You might need a little outside objective evaluation. However, DO NOT, for one second, believe in these services as a panacea that will solve all your personal presentation problems overnight. interviewing well is a SKILL! Skills require practice and this particular skill requires hours of personal introspection so that you have the right things you want your target employer to know about you at the ready.

Interviewing well is about developing a strategy to do just one thing - make the interviewer remember who you were. Your presence needs to stand out amongst all the poeple they interviewed in a given period of time. You will have between twenty and thirty minutes to accomplish this.

What you're really doing is preparing a personal commercial if you will. EVERY word has to count. Every story has to hit a specific target. Nothing you say should be an accident. When done correctly, interview preparation is largely about figuring out what it is about you THEY should be interested in and making that plain to them.

Your resume is a key part of your overall personal presenation because it is the most conventional method of presenting the cold, hard facts that make you a viable candidate in the first place. BUT THAT'S ALL IT IS! The rest of getting hired depends on a great deal more than that and has more to do with who you are as a person.

Hope this helps a bit.

TIS

 

[kelbill]

I would put it in as a combo such as follows:

Sep 00 - Sep 02. Instrument Rating Training, Joe Schmoo FBO, TX. Part-time fry cook at McDonalds.

I think that as long as the timeframe wasn't too too long, it will be a benefit in your favor to show that you were working and earning your flight ratings. That shows commitment and love of flying.

Good luck.

 

[bobbysamd]

Employment gap during training

Finishing up resume for a few regionals and I'm trying to figure out the best way to present the gap in employment history while I was earning my pilot cert's & ratings. Should I list "pilot training" in the employment history, or the dates of training under "education" and hope they can figure it out?

If it were me, I would list your flight training in a separate section called "Technical Training." Be sure to set forth the years in the same format you used for "Education" and "Employment."

Of course, for the app, write up the gap in the Employment History section as "Flight Training." Fill that section out completely, using school officials' names as contacts. For "Reason for Leaving," state "Completed training" or something like that.

I like kelbill's suggestion about how to list a school gap.

As always, TIS has excellent comments. I wrote previously that I created my own resumes by cribbing off Kit's supposed "industry standard" format and designed my own cover letters. I obtained a few regional interviews off my materials, but I made Weyerhaeuser Corporation and the USPS rich in the process because I sent out far, far more materials in relation to replies. Later, I had an ex-student who was good at computers word-process my resume. I wasn't computer-literate at that time.

Upon reflection, perhaps if I knew that Kathy was around in 1989-'91 and had her design my resume my materials likely would have been better and may have led to more regional interviews. Note the use of "may." But, one's odds of landing interviews should be better with professionally-designed materials.

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[Resume Writer]

Re: There are really only a few things...

...you need to know about resumes.

First, a resume is a statment of qualification. That's one thing that you need to show on one.

Second, resumes are not well read by those who might do the hiring. They may not even be read by a person! More on that in a second.

Once minimum qualification has been established in the mind of your target, that's as far as a typical chief pilot or D.O. reads at that time. Seen many a chief pilot look at a resume for UNDER 5 seconds to find what they need to see. Naturally, deeper thought ensues if competition is fierce and oppotunities are scarce.

The reason I make this point is that resume mills all basically have one thing in common - they justify their existence by putting a TON of CRAP in your resume - stuff that just doesn't need to be there. The end result is that your resume gets very busy and difficult to read thus making it more difficult to do the quick once-over that it is likely to be given on first inspection.

One more thought on format - if your target employer has a specific style, format or sumbission route (i.e. email or fax) DO WHAT THEY TELL YOU TO DO!!!! Don't listen to anything ANYONE (including myself) recommends in such cases. You can have the best resume $250.00 can buy and it could be worthless if you write a document that's meant for a person and it's scanned by a machine!

Another thing you need to show on your resume is some amount of your employment history. The thing that many folks tend to do is give too much detail which, again, makes for either a single-page resume that's too busy because the typeface has been reduced in size to make it fit on one page, or it produces a document greater than one page in length, which should be avoided.

Ideally, you should show the past 10 years. Quite a few folks can't do that for a wide variety of very acceptable reasons. So, show what you can. They're going to get all your details on an application anyway. They're also going to have you sign releases for every former employer you have so that they can do the background checks.

There are a lot of people out there charging for expert advice on getting hired at the airlines. Most of them are NOT pilots. Some of them are giving good advice but the best advice comes from those who've done it - those who already have the job you want.

As a rule, employment counseling should be regarded as getting another set of eyes and brain cells on YOUR situation. You might need a little outside objective evaluation. However, DO NOT, for one second, believe in these services as a panacea that will solve all your personal presentation problems overnight. interviewing well is a SKILL! Skills require practice and this particular skill requires hours of personal introspection so that you have the right things you want your target employer to know about you at the ready.

Interviewing well is about developing a strategy to do just one thing - make the interviewer remember who you were. Your presence needs to stand out amongst all the poeple they interviewed in a given period of time. You will have between twenty and thirty minutes to accomplish this.

What you're really doing is preparing a personal commercial if you will. EVERY word has to count. Every story has to hit a specific target. Nothing you say should be an accident. When done correctly, interview preparation is largely about figuring out what it is about you THEY should be interested in and making that plain to them.

Your resume is a key part of your overall personal presenation because it is the most conventional method of presenting the cold, hard facts that make you a viable candidate in the first place. BUT THAT'S ALL IT IS! The rest of getting hired depends on a great deal more than that and has more to do with who you are as a person.

Hope this helps a bit.

TIS

Tis,

You bring up some excellent points. You are correct that the employer scans the resume for qualifications. The typical scan is usually around 15-20 seconds. However, if someone is a professional resume writer and understands what is needed for both a human AND computer scan, then there should be no problem. Further, I did hiring for six years and make it a point to NOT add in extra stuff that you do not need. If a resume writer truly knows what they are doing, the point will be made with the least possible words. In addition, the format will be easily read by the person doing the hiring/interviewing - no matter who it is.

I spend my time knowing everything possible about the hiring and interviewing process - much like you do knowing everything about being a pilot. I am not a resume mill. I do not take people's money just to take their money. As I have said in the past on this board, if someone's resume is fine the way it is, I will tell them. I can also tell you that most people do not have any idea what should be put on their resume. Is that a slam on them? Absolutely not. Everyone has their profession where they strive to be the best - this is my profession, which I have a passion for and give it my all every day of the week. I spend hundreds of dollars every year joining professional organizations to improve my craft. I just spent over $1000 to attend a conference to gain more knowledge in my field. I will be spending over $700 to become certified in the Federal Government Employment process. I take this very seriously and have done so for 18 years.

For what it is worth, my success rate with my pilot clients has been 98% getting interviews during this tough economy. Of the clients who have called me back, 100% of those 98% have gotten jobs. That is not just one or two clients I have worked with, but well over 100 in the past six months. I believe there is a reason for that.

First, I take a lot of time to find out what target my clients have. Second, I write the resume and cover letter to that target. Third, if my clients have a question on something, they know they can call me to get my advice. I do not nickle and dime them. I sincerely want to help them.

So, please, do not lump me in with the "resume mills" that are out there that take no time to get to know their clients. I have developed many friendships with my clients. How many times have you developed a personal relationship with a business, called them on the phone when you are in their city and wanted to take them to dinner? I just did that tonight with one of my clients who was in town and I ended up insisting on paying for the dinner because I value him as a client and a friend.

I truly care about the success of my clients. I will do whatever it takes to help them be successful if they give 100% to the process. My clients are wonderful and I value their friendship and trust in my services. I am truly thankful that I can share my gift with people and help them to succeed in their careers.

Kathy

 

[bobbysamd]

Professionally-written resumes

For what it is worth, my success rate with my pilot clients has been 98% getting interviews during this tough economy. Of the clients who have called me back, 100% of those 98% have gotten jobs. That is not just one or two clients I have worked with, but well over 100 in the past six months.

. . . . which is my point. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20, but maybe, in this case, foresight is better than hindsight.

Good luck for everyone's job searching.

 

[need2AV8]

Thanks to all for your comments.

No worries, Resume Writer. I've already hired you - Thanks.

 

[TIS]

Wow Kathy! You took my thoughts...

...a bit personally. However, in fairness, I wasn't clear about lumping or not lumping ANYONE in or out of any groups, so I suppose you had a right to some offense.


You seem to have latched on to this paragraph:

There are a lot of people out there charging for expert advice on getting hired at the airlines. Most of them are NOT pilots. Some of them are giving good advice but the best advice comes from those who've done it - those who already have the job you want.

Please understand that this was not directed at you per se, but rather at the general landscape out there and I will stand by it as a general statement. I have to figure that If you can afford continuing education fees to remain up-to-date in your craft you're doing something of a land office business. That's not happening by accident!

We're basically in the same business but I only counsel pilots because that's what I am. I have interviewed well and been offered every job I have ever applied for so I know a thing or two about getting hired as a pilot. Currently I also do some of the employment screening for my company so I too have some experience on both sides of the table.

Like you, my success rate in employment counseling is in the upper 90s as a percentage. I work VERY extensively with my clients to give them a sense of who they are and what they should portray as their strengths and selling points. I also help them to understand their weaknesses for what they are and to be comfortable with being open about discussing one or two of them in an interview, if asked. It's really pretty easy as long as you can see the positive through the potential liability of any weakness. After all knowing that you have any particular weakness is the first step in isolating it from things that will be adversely affected by it.

The sad reality is that most people who fly airplanes are not very good at the things that will get them a job. You're right when you say that most clients have no idea what should go on a resume. There are lots of people who, for one reason or another, can help a PILOT with a resume and personal presentation. None of them is necessarily any more effective than any other - all other factors being equal. However, I do find that the fact that I AM a pilot puts people at ease that I know what I'm talking about. That I susequently open so many mental shutters and light up the room of their mind with ideas finishes the job.

My focus starts with a premise that I outlined in my original post: To be hired you must be remembered. Whether they realize it or not, many aspiring professional pilots are uniquely qualified to make this happen. You see, if you're a flight instructor, your job is communicating with another individual in a one-on-one setting (and sometimes more) things that they MUST remember in order to meet their goal of becoming a pilot. Applying these skills to a job interview isn't really much of a stretch but it DOES require a little help to get started.

The whole reason I became involved in this stuff was because as I looked out across the employment vista a few years back (1991) all I could see were people who were either teaching their clients "the interview" or people who were "aviation experts" with no experience in aviation.

The most important aspect of my approach is that it is repeatable. You come to me once and you DON'T come back because you can do it yourself from then on. The skills I teach people are based in personal introspection, self-evaluation, and practice. I teach people how to answer tough situational and scenario-based questions that ONLY pilots have the expertise to address by showing them how to analyze what's missing in the form of the question. You see, no scenario is ever complete. There's always missing information that's CRITICAL to making a good decision. Demonstrating how you'd think as a Captain - which is what they're looking at - means, in part, demonstrating how you'd marshall your resources to meet the challenge.

I also try very hard to empower people with writing. Most people fail to grasp the enormous importance of writing well but as you know, writing makes the things you thought permanent for others who follow you. That's a critical piece of the puzzle in employment because the process takes time to occur and discussions become blurred with elapsed time.

As you also know, writing gives you the ability to say PRECISELY what YOU (remember, it's YOUR commercial) want to say, exactly the way you want it said. If the points you make in a cover letter are the same points you make in a face-to-face interview, and those happen to be tied together with the points you make in a follow-up letter the power of your presentation to be remembered is increased geometrically - even if only because of the uncommon effort your writing represents. All of this requires forethought and planning. Knowing that it is important is easy to pay lip service to. Actually DOING it can seem an mountain to climb. i help turn it into a molehill.

My techniques come from being a pilot and understanding the experience of working my way up the ladder. With over 25 years of airline, corporate, and GA flying experience, and with that being just about 3/4 of my life, I also have the ability to relate, on an age basis, with many of the people I try to help.

We're on the same side here. You needn't take offense to things I said that don't apply to you. I paint with a pretty broad brush most of the time. Part of the reason is to leave open PLENTY of room for exceptions.

TIS

 

[Resume Writer]

TIS,

I know there are people out there that claim to be experts in all kinds of areas. But resume writing and interview coaching is my profession. It is all I do and therefore I spend a great deal of time knowing everything I possibly can. However, if I do not know an answer to something, I have experts surrounding me that can answer the question. Routinely I refer people to others that have more expertise in a given area then I do because I want my clients to benefit the most.

For what it is worth, I have over 16 years in the airline business, with part of that time hiring flight crews. I was not the technical question person - I was the touchy, feely HR person. I was the one asking the "tell us about a time when" questions. My main area of focus was seeing if you could work well and play well with others. Technical expertise is one thing - getting along with others in a closed up metal tube for 4 days is quite another. But you know this because of your background also. I think people feel pretty comfortable with me also because of my time spent in this industry.

I also help people to understand the psychology behind the questions being asked, to base those answers on their personal background and how to avoid traps that would get the HR person to ask more probing questions. I believe that comes from having worked on that side of the table and knowing what it is the HR people are looking for in an answer and a candidate.

Anyway, thanks for clearing up your post. I just think it is important for people to realize that not all people in the employment industry are out there to just take their money and leave them high and dry. Unfortunately, other people have done that and left the rest of us having to clean up after their mess.

Kathy

 

[TIS]

Yup!

I just think it is important for people to realize that not all people in the employment industry are out there to just take their money and leave them high and dry.

True enough. Equally important for people to be discriminating in who they call for help!

TIS

 

[bobbysamd]

Pylits shood right and spel gud

I also try very hard to empower people with writing. Most people fail to grasp the enormous importance of writing well but as you know, writing makes the things you thought permanent for others who follow you . . . . As you also know, writing gives you the ability to say PRECISELY what YOU (remember, it's YOUR commercial) want to say, exactly the way you want it said . . . .

This is really a very good point. I have recommended to people who want to be pilots to take as much math and science as possible in school, but also to take as much English comp and speech as possible.

Not only must one be able to fly an airplane, one must be able to speak articulately and write well. Young people don't always understand that they must impress ADULTS, meaning folks my age, with their abilities. If they come off expressing themselves like Beavis and Butt-head, they certainly will not impress those from whom they want jobs, no matter how well-qualified they are.

I'm not talking about being able to outwrite Hemmingway, but being able to put one's thoughts on paper clearly and correctly. It really kills one's credibility to submit written materials full of misspellings, incorrect punctuation and grammatical errors. Some people say their computer spell checkers failed to correct their misspellings; I would submit they should try using the original spell checker, the dictionary. Proofreading would also be good.

Good point to bring up.

 

[mavrck]

Wow Tis, Kathy,

that is some of THE best advice given that i have ever read on this board! Your posts were awesome! A bit touchy into the flaming side, but awesome on the advice given to applicants.

 

[TIS]

Touchy?

I thought we resolved touchy pretty well in the end. Perhaps not.

TIS

 

[mavrck]

yes, the touchy part looks to be smoothed over nicely. Well done.