Republic/US/MDA/GE Deal Announced

[CancelIFR1200]

GE, US Airways restructure lease, finance terms
4:51 p.m. 06/14/2005
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WASHINGTON, June 14 (Reuters) - US Airways Group Inc. (UAIRQ) and General Electric Co. (GE) have modified an aircraft lease and financing agreement struck last year to keep the carrier airborne during its restructuring, bankruptcy court documents showed on Tuesday.Without new terms from its largest creditor and aircraft financier, US Airways said it would not be able to conclude its bankruptcy successfully and complete its planned merger with America West Airlines (AWA) .The agreement accelerates a reduction in aircraft rental rates, extends the timeline for credit line payments and speeds the return of certain mainline jets to GE.

It also proposes to shift financing and delivery of certain Brazilian-made Embraer (ERJ) regional jets from US Airways to Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (RJET), a US Airways equity partner.

The restructured deal with GE also requires US Airways to file its bankruptcy reorganization plan by June 30, which the airline says it plans to do, and step out of court protection by Oct. 31.The new agreement with GE must be approved by a federal bankruptcy judge in Virginia. A hearing on the plan is scheduled for June 23.US Airways and America West plan to finalize their merger in the fall.

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[godsgift2aviatn]

That announcement doesn't constitute a deal. It simply is a proposition put fourth for the review of the court overseeing the USair bankruptcy. There are still a few more hoops to jump through before anything concrete can be announced.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What makes this more interesting is that the jets for jobs US Air guys don't think they work for Republic. They are claiming ALPA has failed to represent them.

 

[SlapShot]

If they do not work for Republic, then who do they work for?

If they are flying for Chautauqua, shouldn't the Teamsters represent them?

 

[~~~^~~~]

They think they still work for US Air. The America West pilots don't see it that way, as the two groups begin their battle for seniority numbers. The US Air MEC seems to view these pilots as something in between a US Air employee and something else. For instance, they don't get furlough benefits, but they don't get US Air's benefits either. They get MDA benefits....* now MDA is going away to the regional.... do the US Air guys hold any seniority at MDA? Do they have the choice between getting hired at Republic, or extended furlough at US Air?

It is a real mess.

 

[generaltso]

Not sure if this is related:

GE financing orders Airbus, Embraer jets (GE, BA, FR:005730) By Padraic Cassidy
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) - GE Commercial Aviation Services, a unit of General Electric Co. (GE) , said Wednesday it ordered 20 Embraer 190/195 aircraft in addition to 10 Airbus A350 planes. GECAS, with a fleet of 1,300 aircraft, said the deal is subject to the launch of Airbus's A350 (FR:005730) , meant to compete with Boeing Co.'s (BA) 787 Dreamliner jet. Shares of GE fell 14 cents Tuesday to $36.41.

 

[SlapShot]

That does sound like a real mess.

So if a MDA guy goes to Republic, will he have to resign his seniority nunber at Airways?

Does anyone know if the MDA pilots come with the airplanes to Republic? I know there is a lot of speculation but does anyone have anything in writing? I would think they would prefer to go to Jet Blue on the 190 before they would volunteer to come to Republic.

 

[BlackPilot628]

From what I understand. RAH will offer the MDA guys a position with us; but the deal does NOT come with the pilots. Just the Airplanes and there gates at DCA and LGA. Anyone that accepts the postion will be a new hire with RAH. I could see RAH maybe giving them the correct pay for their years of service but they go to the bottom of the list.
I really don't see a lot of the MDA (Ex USair) Capt.s coming over. I can see most of the F/O's comng over.

Of course this is all hear say from different people from within the company and FSI.

 

[~~~^~~~]

GGGRRREEEEAAAAATTTT:

ALPA negotiates a deal to put US Air pilots in the left seat of a E-170 so that eventually they end up on the bottom of Chautauqua's Republic / Alter Ego du jour's seniority list? Looks like Michael Haber's law office is going to have even more clients.

When will ALPA realize that an RJ flying passengers is the same as a 737 flying passengers. Segregation, restriction and destruction are not a good strategy to run a union on.

ALPA's chickens are coming home to roost again. When with this union learn?

 

[piper2av]

From what I understand. RAH will offer the MDA guys a position with us; but the deal does NOT come with the pilots. Just the Airplanes and there gates at DCA and LGA. Anyone that accepts the postion will be a new hire with RAH. I could see RAH maybe giving them the correct pay for their years of service but they go to the bottom of the list.

I really don't see a lot of the MDA (Ex USair) Capt.s coming over. I can see most of the F/O's comng over.

Of course this is all hear say from different people from within the company and FSI.[/QUOTE]


Does MDA have any gates at LGA?

 

[General Lee]

GGGRRREEEEAAAAATTTT:

ALPA negotiates a deal to put US Air pilots in the left seat of a E-170 so that eventually they end up on the bottom of Chautauqua's Republic / Alter Ego du jour's seniority list? Looks like Michael Haber's law office is going to have even more clients.

When will ALPA realize that an RJ flying passengers is the same as a 737 flying passengers. Segregation, restriction and destruction are not a good strategy to run a union on.

ALPA's chickens are coming home to roost again. When with this union learn?

Fins,

You think any of this was seen prior to MDA's agreement with USAir? You love to blame ALPA, but you are reluctant to get your own union or leave ALPA. Which is it? Leave already. Go create your own new union, and see how that goes. The USAir situation has been "fluid" for a year now, and nobody could have guessed what would happen next. But, you love to blame everything on ALPA. Remember this, the RJDC guys are a bunch of lazy senior pilots that want bigger planes without giving up their seniority, vacation, and weekends off. They don't want to be FOs again at a Major, because the day they turned Bandit Captain they knew they would neve be an FO again..... Yeeee haw. Time to fly the bandit to Texarkana...... Suuuu-wwweeeet. Why don't you RJDC guys apply to CAL? They are hiring. What? They won't hire you directly into the left seat and without 4 weeks of vacation? They won't? You may have to work weekends? That's not fair! It's time to sue somebody. ALPA should have fought for that too..... They should have fought for RJ Captains----the right for them to immediately flow into the left seat of any major that hires them..... Where is that number for Michael Haber......?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[N813CA]

Here is another thing to consider. Comair is now opening a base in Orlando again. Why would delta want competition to be flying for them!!!! Good by taco tube.

 

[spinproof]

Fins,

You think any of this was seen prior to MDA's agreement with USAir? You love to blame ALPA, but you are reluctant to get your own union or leave ALPA. Which is it? Leave already. Go create your own new union, and see how that goes. The USAir situation has been "fluid" for a year now, and nobody could have guessed what would happen next. But, you love to blame everything on ALPA. Remember this, the RJDC guys are a bunch of lazy senior pilots that want bigger planes without giving up their seniority, vacation, and weekends off. They don't want to be FOs again at a Major, because the day they turned Bandit Captain they knew they would neve be an FO again..... Yeeee haw. Time to fly the bandit to Texarkana...... Suuuu-wwweeeet. Why don't you RJDC guys apply to CAL? They are hiring. What? They won't hire you directly into the left seat and without 4 weeks of vacation? They won't? You may have to work weekends? That's not fair! It's time to sue somebody. ALPA should have fought for that too..... They should have fought for RJ Captains----the right for them to immediately flow into the left seat of any major that hires them..... Where is that number for Michael Haber......?


Bye Bye--General Lee

General as always your simplictic erroneous twist on the RJDC and it's intention couldn't be more transparent. Resulting once again in name calling as a way of making a useless point.

The RJDC is a suit against ALPA for preditory barginning by one member group against another. One in which they were complicit in every detail. Those of you that fail to see this is exactly why the RJDC exist.

As for your lazy comment I feel sure those in question would match duty hours with you anyday!

 

[h25b]

Here is another thing to consider. Comair is now opening a base in Orlando again. Why would delta want competition to be flying for them!!!! Good by taco tube.

Are you trying to tell everyone that there can only be one connection partner operating out of a base at a given time ?? CHQ's probably not going anywhere. I've flown on ALL of the connection carriers and believe me it's pretty transparent from the pax standpoint. I'd rather fly in the back of an ERJ any day. The CRJ is horrible in the back to ride in.

So would you care to share with us all why you think CHQ will be leaving MCO or is your assertion purely spite ???

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I really feel bad for the MidAtlantic (USAir) pilots. Most of those folks (especially those in the left seat) were the 10+ year guys. MAA was plugged as a "soft landing" by Dave Seigel. It was originally supposed to be a place for the furloughees to go until recall.

After all... Seigal was parking the short-haul, narrow-body fleet (DC9, MD80, F100..the F28 was gone already). He then decided to REPLACE the short-haul, narrowbody fleet with a bunch of brand new airplanes... seemed only fair that those pilots be given the opportunity to fly them.

Then the FAA balked at the "certificate within a certificate" BS... so they became US Airways pilots again. Of course, now the US Airways seniority list is completely absurd. There are now "US Airways pilots" who are 'recalled' widely out of seniority order -- heck there are even some Piedmont, Allegheny, and PSA guys who are on the property. (rumor has it they want integration ahead of the furloughed pilots who elected not to go to MidAtlantic...nice huh?)

So now US Airways is all one big disfunctional family. The airline, with its E170 (might as well call it Metrojet) division which is operating on, not only a different payscale, but with different benefits etc. as well.

If that wasn't enough, now the castaways (they're here for a long, long, time) are once again being stranded by the Gilligans Island of Airlines. The company is selling THEIR EQUIPMENT to Chautauqua.

Wow. Big dillema here. According to ALPA these guys are US Airways pilots...so they could probably win a grievance and remain with US Airways -- but they'll all instantly be furloughed. (and nobody knows whats going to happen to the furloughees during the merger)

They could go to Republic, but they're pretty much at the whim of the Teamsters who will likely not be very charitable. After all, they're viewing it as an asset sale -- not a merger.

So here they are. At worst 10+ year US Airways veterans with in excess of 10,000 hours TT. At best 6000+ hour, 3 year US Airways furloughees who were probably WORKING for Chautauqua or another regional like it 6 years ago.

Now they'll be forced to decide between another furlough or going to the bottom of the list at Chautauqua and flying right-seat for someone with a fraction of their experience? Ouch.

The weather started getting rough, the tiny ship was tossed....

These poor guys just cant win.

Oh...and for you folks who think they should just "go" to Jetblue and fly the 190? What are you smoking? You think they can just "go"? Just show up on Monday? I'm sure they'll be holding the door wide open. Come on. Jetblue might be an option for some of those guys who are fortunate enough to get an interview and then go through that interview process -- but Jetblue will NOT absorb every pilot at MidAtlantic. So offering that up as an option for these guys is preposterous.

 

[bvt1151]

From what i understand, the jets for job agreement set forth in LOA 91 will require 50% placement of MDA pilots.

 

[FlyingDawg]

That does sound like a real mess.

So if a MDA guy goes to Republic, will he have to resign his seniority nunber at Airways?

Does anyone know if the MDA pilots come with the airplanes to Republic? I know there is a lot of speculation but does anyone have anything in writing? I would think they would prefer to go to Jet Blue on the 190 before they would volunteer to come to Republic.

The union at CHQ looks at these as an asset purchase. In the past when US Air has sold aircraft, did pilots go with them? I don't think so. In addition the current J4J agreement only applies to a certain number of 145 airframes. If the 170's come with pilots attached then a new J4J agreement will be ratified by the pilot group. This time the CHQ/RAH pilot group has the ball in their court, I doubt that will happen.

 

[michael707767]

When will ALPA realize that an RJ flying passengers is the same as a 737 flying passengers. Segregation, restriction and destruction are not a good strategy to run a union on.

Hmm, ok Fins. Why don't you demand, and hold out for, the same pay as a 737 pilot? Why would you accept being paid less?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

or at the very least an equal proportion. I/E if a 737 Captain makes $100/hr for a 100 seat airplane. (simple numbers or simple math) Then a 70 seat Captain should make at least $70/hr.

 

[Draginass]

Sounds like the MDA pilots are screwed. Their union gave up fragmentation rights. My money is on the senior U pilots selling-out their fellow junior pilots . . . . . AGAIN.

 

[jobear]

The union at CHQ looks at these as an asset purchase. In the past when US Air has sold aircraft, did pilots go with them? I don't think so. In addition the current J4J agreement only applies to a certain number of 145 airframes. If the 170's come with pilots attached then a new J4J agreement will be ratified by the pilot group. This time the CHQ/RAH pilot group has the ball in their court, I doubt that will happen.

Dawg has it correct, in reading the LOA's the J4J is limited to small jet aircraft and 32 airframes if I read the LOA correctly. If a J4J pilot wants to leave the U side then they will be treated as newhire according to the CHQ CBA. Then again I may have read it all backwards.....

Jobear
RIF

 

[doh]

Fins,

You think any of this was seen prior to MDA's agreement with USAir? You love to blame ALPA, but you are reluctant to get your own union or leave ALPA. Which is it? Leave already. Go create your own new union, and see how that goes. The USAir situation has been "fluid" for a year now, and nobody could have guessed what would happen next. But, you love to blame everything on ALPA. ...
Bye Bye--General Lee

General, the only reason it wasn't seen was because ALPA has become too reactionary. There is no planning any more.

 

[michael707767]

or at the very least an equal proportion. I/E if a 737 Captain makes $100/hr for a 100 seat airplane. (simple numbers or simple math) Then a 70 seat Captain should make at least $70/hr.

actually, I would bet that by the seat, a 70 seat capt makes more than a 737 captain.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You know, Michael, I didn't buy that so I did a little math myself. Got the figures off of airlinepilotpay.com and used 10 year 737 (126 seats) captain pay, and 10 year 70-95 seat "RJ" pay for all figuring. You weren't far off.

The fact is that most of the payscales are dead on -- EXCEPT for Jetblue's E-190 rates.

Here's how it shakes out:

USAir: $122/hr
DAL: $153/hr
SWA: $178/hr

Proportionally, using USAir's number, a Jetblue 195 10 year Captain should make approximately $92/hr.(assuming 95 pax.) $105/hr (assuming 108 pax)

Jetblue's actual rate? $85/hr

So they're off quite a bit.

Lets look at the Delta folks...

A DAL 737-300 10 yr Captain makes $153/hr (124 seats)

Proportionally a Comair 70 seat Captain should make $86.37/hr

Comair's actual rate? $89/hr

Now lets look at our disfunctional friends at US Airways.

A US Airways 737-300 10 yr Captain makes $122/hr (126 seats)

Proportionally a PSA 70 seat Captain should make $67.77 and a MidAtlantic 75 seat Captain should make $72.61/hr

What do they really make?
PSA: $75.00/hr ....................... MidAtlantic: $77.00/hr

Just for comparison, by the way folks, if we were to use Southwest's numbers...

A 10 yr 737 Captain at Southwest makes $178/hr...

For a 70 seat Captain to be proportionally on-scale he would have to make $98.88/hr...

How long will Southwest sustain those industry-leading pay scales? <tongue-in-cheek>

 

[michael707767]

The fact is that most of the payscales are dead on -- EXCEPT for Jetblue's E-190 rates.

I had been told that Jetblue figured their E-190 rate by simply taking the A320 rate per seat and multiplying that by the number of seats on the 190.

A DAL 737-300 10 yr Captain makes $153/hr (124 seats)

Proportionally a Comair 70 seat Captain should make $86.37/hr

Comair's actual rate? $89/hr

Using the USAir numbers you provided you get for a 737 capt 122 over 126 seats for .97 per seat. Now for the PSA rate of 75 over 70 seats you get 1.07 per seat.


Using DAL/CMR numbers........the DAL 737 rate, 153 over the number of seats, 124, works out to 1.23 per seat. The CMR 70 seat rate of 89 over the number of seats, 70, works out to 1.27 per seat. For comparison, the CMR 50 seat rate is 79, over 50 seats for a per seat rate of 1.58.


So, pretty close to being proportional, but the RJ70 rate is a bit more by seat.

For comparison, let look at some larger aircraft. Sticking with DAL ten year numbers, The DAL MD88 rate is 156 over 142 seats for a per seat rate of 1.09. The 757, seating 183(mainline) pays 177 for a per seat rate of .97. A 767-300 pays 177 also, for a per seat rate of .70.

 

[charlie2]

I assume that by using the number of seats in the comparison the point is that a pilot should be paid more if his aircraft can produce more revenue for the company. Is this right? If so, comparing a CRJ to a narrow body is not a good idea because the CRJ's have a small baggage area in the back of the aircraft that probably can't carry very much revenue producing cargo/mail where a 737 or even the bigger EMB's have pits that are almost as long as the pax area above giving those aircraft much more revenue producing ability.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Good point Charlie. I think we've learned a few things.

#1: America West and UPS have the right idea. One pay-scale, regardless of aircraft type, based on seniority

#2. Jetblue's EMB payrates are rediculous. Might as well paint "People's Express" on the side.

 

[michael707767]

I assume that by using the number of seats in the comparison the point is that a pilot should be paid more if his aircraft can produce more revenue for the company. Is this right?

I think so. The revenue potential is a big factor, but I also think its about risk and responsibility. A CRJ crash can only kill 50 people, and from the business standpoint, only expose the company to 50 lawsuits. So a 737 capt faces more than twice the exposure. A 737 pilot is also responsible for managing a larger crew (3 FAs vs 1, or 2 for a RJ70) and a 737 pilot is responsible for a more expensive piece of equipment (though I realize a new RJ is worth more than 25 year old 737). All things considered yes, I think you can justify paying more to the pilot of a larger aircraft.

 

[bvt1151]

Be careful comparing pay rates and not work rules. Airways still has some of the highest labor costs due to their work rules, while Southwest pilots actually work for that kind of pay.

 

[the turtle]

There are no 10 year 737 Capts at Airways...these numbers don't work