Recent Lear crash?

[Timebuilder]

Just in the past 48 hours, I heard a news report of a Lear crash out in California. Anyone have the info on this? I can't find any web accounts yet.

 

[scubabri]

I've heard that it was a lear 24 managed by Xtrajet, they reported to ATC and either called mayday or told ATC that they were having a problem, and then disappeared off radar.

They rained down someplace over/around Victorville.

b

 

[FL240]

Lear Crash

There is a link to a article here. It was a Lear 24 operated by Xtrajet. Don't know much else than what I read here. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the two pilots involved in this accident.

Link

 

[Sam Fisher]

It is a sad story. I have a friend who works there and was worried when I heard the news. It is a tragic story. From what I have been told (3nd hand info and I understand the danger in posting 3rd hand info) - the SIC was 18 years old (with 300ish hours TT and little to no time in the airplane) and the Captain had no time in a 24 but a little in the 36. They were doing a "training flight" on their way to pick up a passenger for a revenue flight.

My prayers and thoughts go out to their families and friends.

 

[TransMach]

Time in Type

Sam,

I understand the unreliable nature of 3rd hand information, but I've got to say that if the F/O had no experience in Learjets and the captain has some experience in LR36 but none in a 24 and they were doing a training flight enroute to pickup revenue passengers, this business has truly reached rock bottom!

Putting that crew in a Learjet 24B is simply a request for disaster, if it's true that is.

TransMach

 

[Sam Fisher]

Re: Time in Type

Sam,

I understand the unreliable nature of 3rd hand information, but I've got to say that if the F/O had no experience in Learjets and the captain has some experience in LR36 but none in a 24 and they were doing a training flight enroute to pickup revenue passengers, this business has truly reached rock bottom!

Putting that crew in a Learjet 24B is simply a request for disaster, if it's true that is.

TransMach

Trans,

I agree. I typically hate 3rd hand information and the propagation of rumors so I feel bad for stooping to this level, but if this is true, then shame on ExtraJet. I know some other things about them but I do not feel comfortable posting on those issues.

Sam

 

[chrisdahut2]

I don't know much about it, but I've heard rumours that the SIC was one of my first flight students. Low time, and young (23) Poor guy, RIP.

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

Do the 24 and 36 share the same type? How could he be flying an airplane he'd never flown before as a captain if he was only typed in the 30's series? What are the requirments for a co-pilot for part 135, I forget, but 300 hours seems pretty low?

 

[sky37d]

here's the faa synopsis

** Report created 12/24/2003 Record 2 **
********************************************************************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 600XJ Make/Model: LJ24 Description: LEARJET 24B
Date: 12/23/2003 Time: 1711

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: HELENDALE State: CA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT DECLARED AN EMERGENCY AND WAS RETURNING TO CHINO WHEN RADAR WAS
LOST AND AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, TWO PERSONS ON BOARD
WERE FATALLY INJURED, HELENDALE, CA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 2 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: UNK



OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Unknown Operation: General Aviation

Departed: CHINO, CA Dep Date: 12/23/2003 Dep. Time: 1700
Destination: SUN VALLEY, ID Flt Plan: IFR Wx Briefing: U
Last Radio Cont: UNK
Last Clearance: UNK

FAA FSDO: RIVERSIDE, CA (WP21) Entry date: 12/24/2003

here's who owned it

PAVAIR INC
Street 3135 DONALD DOUGLAS LOOP S
City SANTA MONICA State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 90405-3210
County LOS ANGELES
Country UNITED STATES

 

[Sam Fisher]

PAVAIR is a shell corporation for ExtraJet.

Sam

 

[1.3XVso]

My condolences and prayer.

I was just told by a friend about the crash. I knew one of the pilots that I trained with. My prayers to him and his family and the other crew.

 

[Hawker rider]

My thoughts and prayers are with the families. To have to go through this at any time is hard enough, but especially it being christmass.

I was in the air at the same time in the area in my lear 24 too...

You see the pictures, there just isn't very much left of one of those planes once it comes down........... scary stuff

 

[avbug]

The 20 series and the 35/36 share a common type, but the 20 series is a lot more airplane. In particular, the airplanes with the early wing require a lot more vigilence.

 

[TurboS7]

LR24B is a smoker, a LR35 or 36 is a puppy dog. When you level at 410 with a LR24 is just keeps accelerating right up to MMO and beyond. A Lear 35 just staggers up there and hangs.

P.S. Most Lear 24B autopilots don't work and we just hand fly them. A Lear 35/36 has a nice autopilot that works all the time.

 

[Rick1128]

Yes the 24 is a smoker, but the 35/36 is not a puppy dog. It will still bite you if you don't pay attention. Compared to the 23 and 24 the 35/36 is fairly tame, but compare it to other bizjets like the Hawker, citation or Falcon, it is still can be a handful.

There are very few Lears out there with the razor wing, I have seen that particular 24 and I can't recall what wing it had. But I think I would have noticed if it had the razor wing. That generation aircraft, most likely had the Mark II wing.

The 20's do accelerate quickly and the pilot has to be well ahead of the aircraft. The 35/36 is slower due to the fan engine, but they will exceed Mmo if you let it. This is one thing that 20 drivers have a problem with, the slow acceleration of the 35/36. They want that quick acceleration and will level off too early to get it.

The autopilots will work if the operator maintains them. I have flown 2 Lear 23's and the autopilots worked just fine. You have to remember that the FC110 autopilot is an advanced wingleveler. So don't expect too much out of it. One of the problems I am seeing right now is that FAA Inspectors are expecting to see fancy manuvers on the autopilot in early Lears. And the pilots and check airmen are having problems explaining to these inspectors that the inspector's expectations are way too high. And the 35/36 autopilot doesn't work all the time. The FC200 is an upgrade of the FC110. And I have flown 35s without a working autopilot. Now, they are earier to get fixed due to the recency of its electronics, but they do continue to break from time to time.

As for no time in a 24, the LR-Jet type covers the 23, 24, 25, 28, 29, 31, 35, 36 and 55. It is possible to get a type in the 31 with a 135 ride and do your first trip in a 23. These aircraft are in the same 'family' of aircraft, so the Inspector or Check Airman only has to do a differences oral to qualify the pilot in the aircraft. A situation like the one described above show a lack of management attention and care. I have been fortunate that all the operators I have worked for would not put a new Captain in that sort of situation. He would have flown a flight or two with an experienced Captain, then a few trips with a highly qualifed FO.

If the FO's qualifications were stated correctly, the Captain very likely was very overloaded and that may have contributed to the accident. There are sometime when you are single pilot even with a FO. And there can be time you may have been better off without him. Based on my pass experiences, it is my guess if this was the first time the FO had flown in the 24, he was behind the aircraft.

FO qualifications are basicly Commercial, Instrument, 2nd class medical and breathing(maybe). The insurance companies have much higher standards.

 

[LJDRVR]

What a horrible shame. We all lose something when yet another crew perishes in such an unnecessary accident. My thoughts and prayers go to their families, freind and coworkers.

A Safe Christmas to you all,

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

So you can fly anything, but the 40 and 60 series with out even a trasition type (or what ever you call it when you start flying a different modle)?

 

[hydroflyer]

So you can fly anything, but the 40 and 60 series with out even a trasition type (or what ever you call it when you start flying a different modle)?

As I understand it, the type is a 20,30,50 series type as stated in an earlier post. Looking at the 55 and seeing its outside resemblence to a 60 more than a 20 or 30 series had me a little surprised, but looks aren't everything and I don't know much in regards to performance or systems of the planes.

Unfortunately this could appear to be a case of "legal, yes; smart, no" if this information is true.

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

"As for no time in a 24, the LR-Jet type covers the 23, 24, 25, 28, 29, 31, 35, 36 and 55."

Does that mean that one type covers every thing with out even going to another school?

 

[JBcrjca]

N600XJ??

A month or so ago, I was climbing eastbound out of LAX, passing over Thermal...a jet on the frequency declared an emergency, requested an emergency landing at PSP with "engine trouble", as the crew stated...they briefly mentioned a flameout. I was bored, so I noted the N# to look up later to see what type it was. I specifically remember a 600## number, and it was a Lear 24B from SoCal according to the FAA registry. I wouldn't bet money on the "XJ", but I'm thinking it might be the same plane. Things that make you go hmmmmm. My condolences to the crew and their families.