Questions to ATC

[RJslim]

What ever happen to the min assigned speed of 170 on final. One of my Company training manuals listed the speeds that ATC could or would assign to 121 comm. acft and one of which was a min of 170 on final. I have noticed lately ATC attempts to assign 160, 150 and even slower, whats up with that?

 

[ATCT]

OK heres some excerpts from the 7110.65

_______

5-7-1. APPLICATION ​

"

b. Do not assign speed adjustment to aircraft:
1. At or above FL 390 without pilot consent.
2. Executing a published high altitude instrument approach procedure.
3. In a holding pattern.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Holding Instructions, Para 4-6-4.[/SIZE]
4. Inside the final approach fix on final or a point 5 miles from the runway, whichever is closer to the runway. "

______________________
5-7-3. MINIMA
When assigning airspeeds, use the followingrecommended minima:
.....
2. If a pilot is unable to comply with the speed assignment, the pilot will advise.
b. When an operational advantage will be realized, speeds lower than the recommended minima may be applied.
c. To arrival aircraft operating below 10,000 feet:
1. Turbojet aircraft. A speed not less than 210 knots; except when the aircraft is within 20 flying miles of the runway threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 170 knots.
2. Reciprocating engine and turboprop aircraft. A speed not less than 200 knots; except when the aircraft is within 20 flying miles of the runway threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 150 knots.


Straight from the 7110.65R, Change 3...Current 30 August, 2007.

ATCT
(ATC)​

 

[RJslim]

That quote confirms that they "ATC" should not assign a speed slower than 170 kts to a jet more than 5 miles out. This however happens on a day to day basis. I do understand ATC is trying to accommodate a lot of aircraft in some very congested airspace, DTW for example, but disregard to the min speed is not the answer. In fact it could jeopardize the safety of some flights, and I know the pilots can refuse but we should not have too or espically recieve flack from the controller because we can't comply with a slower speed in icing. Hello.

 

[cjcpilot]

Read the bold print ...

When assigning airspeeds, use the followingrecommended minima:
.....
2. If a pilot is unable to comply with the speed assignment, the pilot will advise.
b. When an operational advantage will be realized, speeds lower than the recommended minima may be applied.

 

[Say Again Over]

In fact it could jeopardize the safety of some flights

Ah, may I ask what you are flying that this could happen, an F-104 perhaps, just curious.

 

[Flyin2low]

A CRJ200 maybe

 

[Say Again Over]

What kind of ref speeds on the CRJ200?

 

[paulsalem]

CRJ 200 is Cat D. Highest Ref is 140 I believe.

 

[Say Again Over]

Well I guess I don't really see the problem then, small Airbuses have some of the highest ref speeds (140-145) and have a feature called Ground Speed Mini and that can put you in the 160 range . Have been to ATL many times holding 160 in the conga line, no problem.

 

[ekuflyer]

CRJ 200 is Cat D. Highest Ref is 140 I believe.

I think I remember 147 Knots at MLW. But you do get into Min speeds for a particular flap setting. As I remember the flaps 20 min speeds at heavy weights were quite high. I remember the Comair guys not accepting slower speeds because they couldn't go to 30 flaps without the gear according to there company. Many times the ATL app. guys would vector them to the back of the line for not accepting a slower speed. Is that fair?

 

[ATCT]

Is that fair?

Spinning one a few times to get 30 other aircraft in quicker and just as safe....yep sounds good to me.

Regarding the smaller Airbi's, ive never had a problem with em, actually more to the fact that I need to em increase speed 10 or 20 knots. (Ask one to come back to final approach speed at the marker, especially the A319's from what ive seen, and it'll come back to 120 on the GS).

ATCT

 

[RJslim]

What kind of ref speeds on the CRJ200?

With Flaps 20 on final in vis precip in freezing conditions your looking at about 185 which is well above 170, or 160. You could slow but you would have to extend flaps, and or gear which you would not want to do in ice.