Questions for NJ Crews

[I-R-DXR]

One of the reasons I joined this board was to find some answers and to see the "other" side of the story. Some have been answered others not. This is by NO means a flame or troll post. These are question's that I have or have heard in the casino. Thank you for your time.

First Im not going to ask what the pay amount you are looking for. Shouldn't show your hand sort of speak.​

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1.(a)Is it true you are asking for more than double your current wage?​

1.(b) If so has it ever been done by a union before?

2. The company offered an auditor - you declined. Did you counter with a different auditor?​

3. If you are released to self help (june24 I think) do you have a strike vote then or after the 30 day cooling off period?​

4. How many or what percentage do you need to approve a strike?​

5. Why not binding arbitration? (for the record Im clueless if the company would agree either)
​

6. Is your requested pay based of Frac, Corp, or Vendor?​

I hope you don't choose the flame me here. These are honest questions A LOT of folks are asking. It pretty much goes without saying I have no experience with unions so any help here would be appreciated.​

.​

 

[El Chupacabra]

As Ross Perot said,

"When all you have is a penny all it takes is another penny to double it."

1st Year CS Captain. 64K

1st year NJ Captain 37K


64/37 = 1.73 Takes a 73% raise to match. Thats getting close to double.

The CS pilot is flying a CJ. Not a X or a Falcon 2000.

NBAA Falcon 2000 ave about 120K (This is also about starting pay for NJE Falcon)

NJ 6th yr F2000 Captain 64K

120/64 = 1.88 Will take 88% increase to match.

Imagine you were working for 55% of what your friends earn doing the same work someplace else... What would you ask for knowing its what you'll have to live with (if history is any indication) for another 7 yrs before a renegotiated pay will take effect?

 

[CapnVegetto]

One of the reasons I joined this board was to find some answers and to see the "other" side of the story. Some have been answered others not. This is by NO means a flame or troll post. These are question's that I have or have heard in the casino. Thank you for your time.

First Im not going to ask what the pay amount you are looking for. Shouldn't show your hand sort of speak.​

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1.(a)Is it true you are asking for more than double your current wage?​

1.(b) If so has it ever been done by a union before?

2. The company offered an auditor - you declined. Did you counter with a different auditor?​

3. If you are released to self help (june24 I think) do you have a strike vote then or after the 30 day cooling off period?​

4. How many or what percentage do you need to approve a strike?​

5. Why not binding arbitration? (for the record Im clueless if the company would agree either)
​

6. Is your requested pay based of Frac, Corp, or Vendor?​

I hope you don't choose the flame me here. These are honest questions A LOT of folks are asking. It pretty much goes without saying I have no experience with unions so any help here would be appreciated.​

.​

I don't work at NJA, so any NJA guys can correct me or flame me....

1. (a) Maybe. They DESERVE double their current wage for the amount of hours they work. It's about industry average.

(b) I don't know.

2. Don't know

3. Don't know.

4. Don't know.

5. Binding arbitration???? An arbitrator just a$$ f--ked the Alaska Airlines pilot group, 26% (average) paycut, significantly worse work rules. They completely bought into management's bulls--t and gave them almost EXACTLY what they asked.

6. All 3. NBAA industry average is what corp/frac guys like to go by. For that type equipment NJA pilots, on average, should be making about twice what they're making now. The only group that's even close is the CE-560 captains making about $60K a year. That's about right. But......that's something like 5 or 6 year pay and the 560 is a junior aircraft.

 

[I-R-DXR]

Thanks for the respones so far.

Just to make sure Im not misunderstood here. Question #1 is NOT to ask Pilot worth. Anyway El Chup answered that one for me - thanks.

.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Actually Capn V answered. What we are asking is based on NBAA pay.

If NBAA/NJA pay is double? I do not know.


Some news report:

Buffett said he is holding about $45 billion in cash with no major acquisitions in sight, but said Berkshire is poised to announce one acquisition in the insurance field that will be worth nearly $1 billion.

"We'd love to have one in the $5 billion to $10 billion range," Buffett said. "At the moment we've got more money than brains, and we hope to do something about that."

​

 

[Fozzy]

"2. The company offered an auditor - you declined. Did you counter with a different auditor?"

No, the company offered Kit Darby. And I don't want to go off on that.............. Regardless, I don't care what any audior says. Pay us our worth, period. I don't need a third party to tell me what they "think".

 

[El Chupacabra]

2. The company offered an auditor - you declined. Did you counter with a different auditor?"



​

What was wrong with the NBAA salary survey? NetJets is an NBAA member.

"There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count and those who cannot." -- Warren Buffet

​

I think anybody who buys the idea that Charter Flights cost $3 for every $1 we collect from the owners in revenue ... they might belong to the group who cannot. How can you possibly lend any credibility to the company response to 6S after reading that?

 

[IFlyOU]

i work for netjets as a desk jockey

i get 3%-5% pay raise each year (about the same as inflation)

pilots get 7%-12%

i'd love to double my income

will it happen? no

am i happy? yes

do i feel i'm being treated fairly? yes

do i love my job? yes

last week i was on a ferry to PDK from CMH... (my sister had a baby and i was on my way to see the newest hell-raiser in the family). the crew had a 0001L show and scheduling was working them to almost 14 hours. We were late departing due to some MEL's to PDK, we were super late, the crew had me in the cockpit to keep them awake (i told a lot of good jokes), the crew was hungry, crew food didn't show in PDK, and when we got there, the PAX were super pissed we were late.

I wish everyone in the company had your perspective...

I do hold a tremendous amount of respect for you guys from what i see you guys go thru every day. you are all very professional with your job and with the PAX...

regardless, someone will always be pissed off, agreement or no...

i was instructing as a CFI for a few years... but i got out to re-evaluate my career and my future... i didn't want to see myself as an underpaid fork lift driver... because that's how i felt.

it was hard to give up what i loved to do... but it was worth it. stability is very important to me... and i know all of you guys knew what you were getting yourselves into when you decided to fly for a living.

you love to fly... but understand that this is just the nature of the beast.

we have a wonderful company. we really do. tens of thousands of pilots just like you are jealous of you guys, despite the fact that many of you are so unhappy... think about how secure your jobs are right now. Would you like to go back to united or delta or us airways?

be thankful for what you have... because there are a lot of pilots out there who are doing a lot worse off.

my 2 cents

<3

 

[IFlyOU]

anyone also hear the rumor that buffett might sell the company if the whole contract thing gets too out of hand?

the rumor is spreading. i hope it doesn't come to that... we'll all be screwed for sure

 

[IFlyOU]

I think anybody who buys the idea that Charter Flights cost $3 for every $1 we collect from the owners in revenue ... they might belong to the group who cannot. How can you possibly lend any credibility to the company response to 6S after reading that?

the new 91k was designed to make us lose money. the 135 operators lobbied to help slow our growth down, and rightly so... we were becoming an oligopoly.

so why do we sell off so many flights?

a) NJA no longer has a 'core fleet' (aircraft owned by Netjets). Bash Marquis all you want because of that... but not too hard. Who kept us afloat after 9/11 when we were all twiddiling our thumbs listening to the rumors of 'NO MORE GENERAL AVIATION!'? Don't forget that.

b) imagine you're in a hotel room in the middle of nowhere in rest. above you a QS tail breaks with PAX on board and has to land nearby. You're perfectly rested, however we can't ASAP you out there to recover the flight due to the whole 'prespective rest' issue. This explains your 5 hour show-go's.

c) we have a large number of crewmembers, and a large number of aircraft. we can only communicate to each other so much. as crew services, we want you to communite to us. Tell us if you see a perfectly fine airplane across the ramp sitting there to recover a flight instead of sending one 500 miles away. We want to know this information. This will cut back on sellofs.

d) show times are static. passanger bookings are fluid. we can't predict when and where a trip will pop up. we do what we can with the 'hot spares' and 'hot standby' created by the planning and forcasting department. There is a large difference between 'hot spare' and 'hot standby' by the way in case anyone is curious...

so i guess the whole theme of this post is that we're doing the best we can with what we have... and it is getting A LOT BETTER! Hang in there guys!

hope this helps

<3

 

[IFlyOU]

one more thing...

Don't like your showtime on your first day out?

Call in the day before. We may be able to 're-brief' you... New thing going around to help keep you guys from rotting in FBO's or terminals

We can't change your showtime unless you call us first!

edit: this only really works if you're not attached to a tail. if you are attached to a tail, then you have a partner attached to a tail. if he doesn't call in, then we have split showtimes... which is bad. give me a call and we'll do everything we can to help you out.

 

[h25b]

Imagine you were working for 55% of what your friends earn doing the same work someplace else... What would you ask for knowing its what you'll have to live with (if history is any indication) for another 7 yrs before a renegotiated pay will take effect?

I'll tell you what I'd be asking if I were in your shoes... I'd be asking those friends of yours when their company is hiring next ....

I think this touches on what people like CatYak and myself don't understand. You point to corporate outfits and say, "that's what we want!" For some reason though none of you seem to be making that leap... Which leads me to believe that there's something about a corporate job that's not attractive to you guys... This is probably why corporate guys get more money to do what they do.

I think you guys/gals definately deserve a raise, but doubt very seriously you're going to get those NBAA rates.

 

[Guitar Guy]

b) imagine you're in a hotel room in the middle of nowhere in rest. above you a QS tail breaks with PAX on board and has to land nearby. You're perfectly rested, however we can't ASAP you out there to recover the flight due to the whole 'prespective rest' issue. This explains your 5 hour show-go's.

I don't understand what you are saying with this point. If the crew was needed after the end of their of rest period, they could still be assigned to recover the trip. I don't understand why a required rest period then necessitates a 5-hour "show-go" in this example.

Are you perhaps saying that the recovery trip was subcontracted and as a result, a rested NetJets crew must wait 5 hours in an FBO?

 

[On Your Six]

i work for netjets as a desk jockey

i get 3%-5% pay raise each year (about the same as inflation)

pilots get 7%-12%

i'd love to double my income

will it happen? no

am i happy? yes

do i feel i'm being treated fairly? yes

do i love my job? yes

last week i was on a ferry to PDK from CMH... (my sister had a baby and i was on my way to see the newest hell-raiser in the family). the crew had a 0001L show and scheduling was working them to almost 14 hours. We were late departing due to some MEL's to PDK, we were super late, the crew had me in the cockpit to keep them awake (i told a lot of good jokes), the crew was hungry, crew food didn't show in PDK, and when we got there, the PAX were super pissed we were late.

I wish everyone in the company had your perspective...

I do hold a tremendous amount of respect for you guys from what i see you guys go thru every day. you are all very professional with your job and with the PAX...

regardless, someone will always be pissed off, agreement or no...

i was instructing as a CFI for a few years... but i got out to re-evaluate my career and my future... i didn't want to see myself as an underpaid fork lift driver... because that's how i felt.

it was hard to give up what i loved to do... but it was worth it. stability is very important to me... and i know all of you guys knew what you were getting yourselves into when you decided to fly for a living.

you love to fly... but understand that this is just the nature of the beast.

we have a wonderful company. we really do. tens of thousands of pilots just like you are jealous of you guys, despite the fact that many of you are so unhappy... think about how secure your jobs are right now. Would you like to go back to united or delta or us airways?

be thankful for what you have... because there are a lot of pilots out there who are doing a lot worse off.

my 2 cents

<3

It's great that you love your job and that you are happy. Good for you. However, that does not change the situation.

The NJA pilots are waaaaay underpaid relative to their peers on comparable aircraft. Warren Buffet has tons of cash and uses NJA to fund Flight Safety. It's time to pony up and pay the pilots a level commensurate with their peers. Otherwise, NJA will continue to lose great pilots who serve as the primary interface with the all-important customer. C'mon, these negotiations have been stalled for way too long - we all know that. Remember, you get what you pay for........

 

[El Chupacabra]

i get 3%-5% pay raise each year (about the same as inflation)

pilots get 7%-12%

​

This is a LIE. Just like the $3 for every $1 charter to revenue BS.

Selloffs
The revenues that the company mentions, "Occupied Hourly Fee", is only about 1/3 of the monies they collect for the trip... but they conveniently forget to mention that there are Monthly management fees and of course the Aquisition monies. Those fees should be added to the Cost per hour that an owner pays us and you will see we are not losing money on selloffs.

We make money because of the selloffs
Do you think that if 100 hrs of Citation X time is sold off that the company only flies 700 hours of revenue trips on that plane? NO! They fly the 100 hours and collect JetCard rates on that time... and charge almost 70% higher than charter prices.

We can go through the math if you want. But suffice it to say that the first deception was the CLAIM that the only revenues collected on the selloff trip was Occupied hourly fee.

Reading the company response to 6S is like watching a NY street hustler ripping people off in a shell game or 3 card monte.

Pilot raises:

There have been ZERO raises since 1998.

Pilot compensation is not an annual salary. It is a contractual MULTI YEAR salary scale.

NOBODY signs up to work for an airline or organization for the YEAR ONE pay. Nobody could be happy with that here or at any major or national airline.

When you sign up its not a matter if you can afford to live on that pay or be happy with it. NOBODY can live on it or be happy with it. Its just a matter of how much money do i have to Borrow on credit cards to buy groceries and pay the rent until I move out of the very low first years.

Now the total value of pilot compensation has not increased in 7 years. 7 years of inflation. Thats probably an attenuation of 25% or so in the value of the career earnings thus far. Inflation has given the company a 25% discount.

Where does management get the 12-15% figure? Well simply they get it because the salary scale is skewed to pay very little in the first yrs of employment. As Years of service of the crews increase they are now required to pay a greater percentage of the compensation they contracted to pay. There has been NO increase in what they contracted to pay over this time.

 

[jpilot]

<<one more thing...

Don't like your showtime on your first day out?

Call in the day before. We may be able to 're-brief' you... New thing going around to help keep you guys from rotting in FBO's or terminals

We can't change your showtime unless you call us first! >>


You will not be seeing many crews calling in to change their briefs. Yes, we don't like crew rot, 0001 shows, etc., but the idea is the company needs relief from 91K regulations and calling in on your last day off. This will be accomplished in the new contract. So in essence, if crews call in the day before (or whenever) to get their brief changed, this will not help us get the contract done any sooner.

 

[IFlyOU]

It's great that you love your job and that you are happy. Good for you. However, that does not change the situation.

The NJA pilots are waaaaay underpaid relative to their peers on comparable aircraft. Warren Buffet has tons of cash and uses NJA to fund Flight Safety. It's time to pony up and pay the pilots a level commensurate with their peers. Otherwise, NJA will continue to lose great pilots who serve as the primary interface with the all-important customer. C'mon, these negotiations have been stalled for way too long - we all know that. Remember, you get what you pay for........

believe me,

nobody wants me to see you guys more happy than i do. It's hard for us to talk to you guys when you're upset or angry. We do want you guys to love you jobs...

 

[IFlyOU]

<<one more thing...

Don't like your showtime on your first day out?

Call in the day before. We may be able to 're-brief' you... New thing going around to help keep you guys from rotting in FBO's or terminals

We can't change your showtime unless you call us first! >>


You will not be seeing many crews calling in to change their briefs. Yes, we don't like crew rot, 0001 shows, etc., but the idea is the company needs relief from 91K regulations and calling in on your last day off. This will be accomplished in the new contract. So in essence, if crews call in the day before (or whenever) to get their brief changed, this will not help us get the contract done any sooner.

roger
yeah, rarely does anyone do that it seems...

 

[Live4flyng]

we have a wonderful company. we really do. tens of thousands of pilots just like you are jealous of you guys, despite the fact that many of you are so unhappy... think about how secure your jobs are right now. Would you like to go back to united or delta or us airways?

I have to disagree with you on this one. Let me start off by saying that there is no such thing as "Job Security" no matter who you work for, unless it is yourself.

Do you really believe there are "tens of thousands" of pilots that are lined up to take our jobs? Are they all qualified for the job? Why are 20-50% of those jealous pilots not bothering to show up for training on day 1? Why are some of them quiting after day 3 of training? I have yet to meet a pilot that is jealous of our pathetic pay, ass busting duty days, and our inept management.

I won't beat the pay issues up anymore. Let's talk about your management that seems to be intent on destroying your "wonderful" company, and so called "job security" you cherish so much.

If you were concerned about your company, you would not be happy to know that the selling off of the core-fleet was a decision made by your President of Netjets. That decision is costing your company millions of dollars in sell-offs as you pointed out, not to mention slower growth and owners who will never renew a contract with your company ever again. How is that for security?

Let's move on the next management issue. The President of your copmany is using the Netjets fleet for his own personal and business travel needs. How many trips a week does he fly, 2-3? Citation X from CMH-DAL CMH-SAV DAL-SAV SAV-CMH CMH-LAX.....well you get the point. What were the figures you were told by management, 3$ for every 1$ or something like that for every sell-off? Looks like your management is costing your company millions of dollars in unessesary travel costs, not very good for job security. How can this be happening when poverty DVDs/Meetings and are being made/held?

Last issue for this post and something to seriously think about. Your President makes $1.2 million dollars a year in salary. We have no idea what kind of bonuses he receives for eliminating the core fleet or destroying company morale by pitting work groups against each other. It always seems to be the fault of the pilot group when an airline fails due to our outrageous salaries. Kind of hard to put that blame on the pilots of NJA. If Netjets is so broke, then pay cuts need to be made all over starting at the TOP. NJI pilots make double what NJA pilots make, management doesn't seem concerned about that. There is no reason why NJA pilots shouldn't make the same.

 

[El Chupacabra]

tens of thousands of pilots just like you are jealous of you guys, despite the fact that many of you are so unhappy... think about how secure your jobs are right now. Would you like to go back to united or delta or us airways?



​

Two G-200 FO's left as soon as their 2 yr training contract was complete...and went to



Aspen Jet

7 and 7 Live where you want.

Starting Pay
85K plus $50 per hour all time over 250 hours.

On track to fly 600 hours.... (just like the 600 I flew in last 12 months) = $102,500.


$28,000 or $102,500 for working the same schedule and getting to live where you want instead of CMH LAX etc..?

Decisions decisions...