Question RE: Gulfstream V

[Lear2460]

Question for Gulfstream folks.....

Gas cap issue today. Is there an "idiot" light that will tell you if the gas cap door (whatever its called) is open prior to flight?

Issue today on the ramp regarding a G5 that says gas cap was not replaced prior to flight. Not that this cannot happen, but, you cannot close the door because of the chain. I would say it is possible to not fully close the door properly after refueling, and have a gas cap pop off, but during a preflight inspection after refueling, does a pilot NOT check his gas cap "area"?

While I did NOT refuel, I did marshal the aircraft out, and think I would have noticed the door being open.

Just wondering....I thought there was an idiot light for just about every door...

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Question for Gulfstream folks.....

Gas cap issue today. Is there an "idiot" light that will tell you if the gas cap door (whatever its called) is open prior to flight?

Issue today on the ramp regarding a G5 that says gas cap was not replaced prior to flight. Not that this cannot happen, but, you cannot close the door because of the chain. I would say it is possible to not fully close the door properly after refueling, and have a gas cap pop off, but during a preflight inspection after refueling, does a pilot NOT check his gas cap "area"?

While I did NOT refuel, I did marshal the aircraft out, and think I would have noticed the door being open.

Just wondering....I thought there was an idiot light for just about every door...

There is a fuel door that covers the dust cap on the refueling recepticle. If the fuel door is open, you get a CAS message (light) and an indication on the synoptics (graphic drawing of airplane). If the dust cap is off, it won't show any light, however, it is normally atached by a cable (chain). It would be almost impossible to close the fuel door with the cap dangling. I have seen, however, a GIII where the chain had broken (years prior) and someone forgot to put the cap back on. No big deal (the single point has a positive shut off and doesn't need a cap), but they had to buy a new one.

Ace

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Question for Gulfstream folks.....

Gas cap issue today. Is there an "idiot" light that will tell you if the gas cap door (whatever its called) is open prior to flight?

Issue today on the ramp regarding a G5 that says gas cap was not replaced prior to flight. Not that this cannot happen, but, you cannot close the door because of the chain. I would say it is possible to not fully close the door properly after refueling, and have a gas cap pop off, but during a preflight inspection after refueling, does a pilot NOT check his gas cap "area"?

While I did NOT refuel, I did marshal the aircraft out, and think I would have noticed the door being open.

Just wondering....I thought there was an idiot light for just about every door...

SO, this almighty GV driver did not take a look at his fuel panel after being serviced?

just trusted the fueler to put it on and shut the door properly?

I mean, who's to blame? -- yeah, the refueler, thats it...

.

 

[Lear2460]

Well, when it comes down to it, the refueler or FBO is at fault. I however, feel that although I hope that someone would notice on the way off the ramp that a door is open, I feel that it is the PIC who is ultimatley in charge of making sure everything is true and correct prior to flight...and I mean PRIOR to flight....AKA AFTER refueling, BEFORE boarding the aircraft the final time.......not after landing and doing a walk around, then getting fuel.

If there is someone else to blame, they will be blamed....it's just the world we live in....

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well, when it comes down to it, the refueler or FBO is at fault. I however, feel that although I hope that someone would notice on the way off the ramp that a door is open, I feel that it is the PIC who is ultimatley in charge of making sure everything is true and correct prior to flight...and I mean PRIOR to flight....AKA AFTER refueling, BEFORE boarding the aircraft the final time.......not after landing and doing a walk around, then getting fuel.

If there is someone else to blame, they will be blamed....it's just the world we live in....

I dont think "ahh...boss...its the refuelers fault" is gonna fly...

EVERYTHING...repeat...EVERYTHING involved with the plane gets answered by - the PIC.

A few times I have left w/o checking the exterior fuel panel (we have lights also)...and I hate that feeling...always check it yourself. Ultimately its your responsiblity...

 

[urflyingme?!]

It's both people's fault. But the PIC will be held responsible. I think that the fueler will have to do a carpet dance for the boss though....

 

[Flying Illini]

not about a GV but about refueling and fuel caps. On the Falcon 10, there is no fuel cap. Often times, we will have the fueler/line personnel mention to us that "hey, you know you're missing your fuel cap?!" To which we respond that the Falcon 10 doesn't have one. But I do appreciate it, it shows that they are paying attention. I'm sure they are doing some CYA as well, but it's appreciated nonetheless.

 

[smellthejeta]

It's both people's fault. But the PIC will be held responsible. I think that the fueler will have to do a carpet dance for the boss though....

Working the line has taught me that you can never be too thorough or redundant during a preflight. When it's your @ss on the line, I cannot see why a pilot would blindly trust that the rampers knew what they were doing. I've actually seen Caravan pilots asks for the tall ladder just so they can double check that the caps were replaced properly.

I've seen or been around when pilots have taxiied out with gear pins in, pitot covers on, baggage doors open, torque links disconnected, fuel caps off... I've even seen pilots forget their passengers. The first three items in the list won't be easily "pinned" on the rampers, and regarding the next two, well, if both parties do their jobs, it would eliminate the need for both parties to be doing the carpet dance. I've also seen pilots taxi into other aircraft with no ground personnel present, and I've seen pilots disregard the instructions from a marshaller and smash into other aircraft. Some rampers will bitch, but I'll always give that extra set of eyes when you want it. Saves all of us from doing paperwork.

What shows a lot of classlessness, though, are pilots who berate rampers for stuff that wasn't their fault or something the pilot should have double checked as part of a proper preflight. Torque links come to mind. What really set me off one day was a King Air pilot who taxiied back to our facility yelling at us about how we didn't put his fuel caps on properly and that he started loosing fuel in flight. I took one look at his caps and told him that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the installation (they were on, placed in the proper direction, and the tabs were down) . Oh boy, did he not want to hear that. The plane ended up going into maintenance for a few days to correct some problem.

 

[HMR]

What shows a lot of classlessness, though, are pilots who berate rampers for stuff that wasn't their fault or something the pilot should have double checked as part of a proper preflight.

I used to fly with a captain who did that everywhere we went. I would end up apologizing and slipping the guys some more $$$ (he didn't tip, of course) when he wasn't looking. A ramper finally called him on it. He was screaming- veins popping out of the neck screaming- at a line supervisor saying: "I'm sick of the sh!tty service we get because you think we're not impotant!" The supervisor responded: "No sir, we take great pride in giving sh!tty service to people even less important than you." I had to hold on to the wing I was laughing so hard. It shut him up for at least a week.

 

[Groundpounder]

I've worked line service for almost 10 years now. There are some things that pilots do that drive me up the wall.

The first thing is when they treat us like total idiots that have never seen a plane before. Yeah, there are some really dumb line guys that could care less, but then there are others like myself who actually give a crap, and know their way around airplanes. I expect you to double check my work, but you don't need to hover around me when I am trying to do my job.

Second, is when a plane drops in without notice, and expects us to drop everything to help them. If you want a 10 min quick turn, give us some advance notice, especially if its a Friday in south Florida. We can only save the world one plane at a time.

Third, if you fly a 20 series lear, MU-2, or some other really loud aircraft, get your clearance and maps out before you crank your engines. Nothing disrupts the ramp more than an MU-2 sitting there with the engines going for 10+ minuites.

Lastly, turn off your landing lights and strobes when you are on the ramp being marhalled. Beacons and so on are fine, but I don't want to be seeing spots for the rest of the night when you leave your super cool comet flash strobes on while you are calling for clearance. On the other hand, turn your beacons on before you crank up, so we know when you are leaving.

I could go on forever, but I want to say thank you to the pilots that treat us like professionals, and understand what goes on in our world. If you are a regular, and treat us well, we'll go the extra mile to help you out. If you are a total a$$ hat..........

 

[semperfido]

I've worked line service for almost 10 years now. There are some things that pilots do that drive me up the wall.

The first thing is when they treat us like total idiots that have never seen a plane before. Yeah, there are some really dumb line guys that could care less, but then there are others like myself who actually give a crap, and know their way around airplanes. I expect you to double check my work, but you don't need to hover around me when I am trying to do my job.

Second, is when a plane drops in without notice, and expects us to drop everything to help them. If you want a 10 min quick turn, give us some advance notice, especially if its a Friday in south Florida. We can only save the world one plane at a time.

Third, if you fly a 20 series lear, MU-2, or some other really loud aircraft, get your clearance and maps out before you crank your engines. Nothing disrupts the ramp more than an MU-2 sitting there with the engines going for 10+ minuites.

Lastly, turn off your landing lights and strobes when you are on the ramp being marhalled. Beacons and so on are fine, but I don't want to be seeing spots for the rest of the night when you leave your super cool comet flash strobes on while you are calling for clearance. On the other hand, turn your beacons on before you crank up, so we know when you are leaving.

I could go on forever, but I want to say thank you to the pilots that treat us like professionals, and understand what goes on in our world. If you are a regular, and treat us well, we'll go the extra mile to help you out. If you are a total a$$ hat..........

I have just as many peeves about line service. BUT I will hold back for fear of being percieved as petty.

 

[Groundpounder]

I have just as many peeves about line service. BUT I will hold back for fear of being percieved as petty.

I always welcome input from flight crews, so please go ahead.

 

[urflyingme?!]

First off, WHERE IS MY LIMO!

 

[Lear2460]

Respect....

I do believe that there will ALWAYS be gripes from line to pilots and pilots to line....thats nothing new. I think when it comes down to it, that BOTH have to respect eachother....

Pilots have their job and thats to fly the plane, and then...(hurry up an wait) take care of the customers they are flying...along with various other items. Line service have their job also.....to take care of A/C arriving and departing, and to help pilots to help their customers to get what they want.

What some pilots (not all...I love you guys) tend to forget, is that while they fly in on a A/C, and they are focusing on their plane,their needs and wants, and getting their customers where they need to be and happily, LINE on the other hand is thinking of the 20 other jets on the ramp, whats inbound and outbound, what pilot/ plane needs this and that, and taking care of pilots customers and their baggage (which sometimes is a real joke)...........in other words, you the pilot, from a C-172 to a big ole Gulfstream is NOT the only guy on the ramp NEEDING SOMETHING.

I try and respect all....I realize that customers can be a big pain, that they can be hard on the pilots when they want what they want and NOW. I know that some pilots are just freaking tired....and want to get going home. Don't forget line might be tired of dealing with people...the pilots and their customers, or maybe have worked a 12 + hours day running around the ramp like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to please everybody at once.

I will stop rambling....no need to bash pilots or line....we all have the same goal..have fun, make some money, be around aircraft, take care of the peeps, and get home.

 

[semperfido]

I always welcome input from flight crews, so please go ahead.

OK, I will reservedly give you just one and perhaps the biggest.

I hate it when the lineman just stands on the ramp and does NOT give me any positve recognizeable direction as to how he would like my ship oriented on his ramp. My aircraft is a little large and it helps enormously if he indicates how he wants the longitudinal axis of my plane aligned. I can do what it takes to get it in the orientation he wants.

That's it.

 

[smellthejeta]

I have just as many peeves about line service.

That makes two of us, and as a groundpounder, I'd probably agree with 90% of what you say. *My* first b!tch are rampers who can't marshall aircraft properly, followed closely by the guys who chase tips at the expense of getting the job done properly.

 

[Lear2460]

Tips....

That makes two of us, and as a groundpounder, I'd probably agree with 90% of what you say. *My* first b!tch are rampers who can't marshall aircraft properly, followed closely by the guys who chase tips at the expense of getting the job done properly.

If a guy/gal is chasing tips, then don't tip. I feel you can tell if they are just in for the hopes of a tip.

I feel bad about accepting tips...a lot of the time I walk away before a pilot or customer can reach for the wallet. We put all tips in a kitty....and it is distributed through everyone for that shift. I don't know if everyones honest, but I turn mine in. I don't want money with bad karma. If I bring in $150 in tips by the end of the night, I MIGHT get $15 to bring home. However, occasionally a pilot/customer will say "Do not turn this in...this is for you only", and I will keep it. I WISH I could keep all the tips...I could use the money though!

So to me, chasing tips is not what its about if your honest. That $3 a guy gives you, at the end of the night, might put 5 cents in your pocket.

 

[Brett Hull]

I've worked line service for almost 10 years now. There are some things that pilots do that drive me up the wall.

The first thing is when they treat us like total idiots that have never seen a plane before. Yeah, there are some really dumb line guys that could care less, but then there are others like myself who actually give a crap, and know their way around airplanes. I expect you to double check my work, but you don't need to hover around me when I am trying to do my job.

Many companies require that a crewmember supervises fueling. It's to make sure one of the dumb guys doesn't pump a thousand gallons of the blue gas into one that uses clear gas. Unless we see you all the time, we don't know if you're experienced or if you're one if the dumb guys.

But yea, there are a lot of buttholes out there wearing stripes on thier shoulders.

 

[JimNtexas]

Lastly, turn off your landing lights and strobes when you are on the ramp being marhalled.

This will leave more energy for the radar.

 

[semperfido]

........lol

 

[Groundpounder]

OK, I will reservedly give you just one and perhaps the biggest.

I hate it when the lineman just stands on the ramp and does NOT give me any positve recognizeable direction as to how he would like my ship oriented on his ramp. My aircraft is a little large and it helps enormously if he indicates how he wants the longitudinal axis of my plane aligned. I can do what it takes to get it in the orientation he wants.

That's it.

I agree.

Our ramp is kind of odd shaped, so I have to park large aircraft at an angle. In order to do this, the pilot needs to follow my marshalling closely to time the turn right. I hate it when they assume they know where they are going to park, and don't pay any attention to what I am doing.

 

[slowto250]

I agree.

Our ramp is kind of odd shaped, so I have to park large aircraft at an angle. In order to do this, the pilot needs to follow my marshalling closely to time the turn right. I hate it when they assume they know where they are going to park, and don't pay any attention to what I am doing.

Pounder,

Might you be located on the southwest coast of the sunshine state ?

P.S. PM me if you'd prefer

 

[semperfido]

I agree.

Our ramp is kind of odd shaped, so I have to park large aircraft at an angle. In order to do this, the pilot needs to follow my marshalling closely to time the turn right. I hate it when they assume they know where they are going to park, and don't pay any attention to what I am doing.

Groundpounder,

They may not understand what you want the end result to be. Occasionally, I disregard the marshallers instructions if I have ANY doubts. As a pilot I want to have some idea what the plan is before I do it. Some of my prefered marshalling methods are:

Marshal stands with his/her arms extended where he wants nosewheel showing me how longitudinal axis should be.

"Follow me" cart/vehicle drives the pattern I am to taxi and then stands where he wants nose of acft.

Multiple mashalls working as team on tight ramps can be good and bad. Good if well trained.

 

[Groundpounder]

Groundpounder,

Marshal stands with his/her arms extended where he wants nosewheel showing me how longitudinal axis should be.


"Follow me" cart/vehicle drives the pattern I am to taxi and then stands where he wants nose of acft.


Multiple mashalls working as team on tight ramps can be good and bad. Good if well trained.

I do the first thing, we don't have a follow me cart, and we use more than one person when needed and when we have the manpower

 

[semperfido]

I'm sure your ramp is one of the "Good" ones!

PS: Gysgt L. Ermy is one of my heroes

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Groundpounder,

Marshal stands with his/her arms extended where he wants nosewheel showing me how longitudinal axis should be.


.

I agree 100%

Just stand exaclty where you want my nose to wind up. Stop moving around. I will bring the plane to you.

Once I had a guy walking around waving me in with one arm as he ate a piece of fried chicken with the other!! - that was purdy damm funny...

 

[slowto250]

I'm sure your ramp is one of the "Good" ones!

PS: Gysgt L. Ermy is one of my heroes

Check out his website, if you haven't already.
www.rleeermey.com

 

[smellthejeta]

Groundpounder,

They may not understand what you want the end result to be. Occasionally, I disregard the marshallers instructions if I have ANY doubts.

Semper,

If you have any doubts, I would suggest you just stop the aircraft, unless you are absolutely certain that continuing will not compromise the safety of the operation. At one job I had, I got to see a GV clip the wing of a Global (not following the marshaller as instructed), and in another instance, I saw a KC135 hit a stair truck that wasn't moving (thinking he was going to line up with the marshaller).

One thing that does irritate me though, is that when parking in tight spots with only one additional marshaller, after showing you where I want your nose, I will step towards the other wing to ensure that you have your clearance. Some crews interpret the "continue straight ahead" signal as meaning "come towards me."

 

[semperfido]

Semper,

If you have any doubts, I would suggest you just stop the aircraft

You are correct. HOWEVER, you have to continue at some point and I have found that sitting there making hand jestures or mouthing words at each other does little to resolve the problem at hand. SO I/we usually continue (very carefully) and park as best we can (while cussing under our breath at the marshaller).

 

[TrafficInSight]

I agree.

Our ramp is kind of odd shaped, so I have to park large aircraft at an angle. In order to do this, the pilot needs to follow my marshalling closely to time the turn right. I hate it when they assume they know where they are going to park, and don't pay any attention to what I am doing.

I had to stop a guy the other day who was about to run over the chocks. It was half my fault for putting the chocks in a dumb place after I pulled them but if he had moved forward like I told him to instead of turning immediately and heading for the nearest taxiway then I would have gotten him past the chocks no problem, instead he had to stop while I moved them again. Most pilots are very good about knowing how large their aircraft is and how far those wings stick out, but if I'm telling you to move forward but you can't really see why then you might want to trust me.