question for "old timers"

[210FR8DOG]

This is a serious question. If there has always been more pilots than jobs, which is what I always hear from guys who have been around a while, then how did pilot salaries at AA, Delta, United, etc. get elevated to the level they were pre 9/11? More importantly, how do we get back to those days or will it ever happen again? I love flying and I can't imagine doing anything else now. But a man has to provide for his family and this is all getting real depressing watching all these concessions take place.

I would really like some serious discussion on this subject please, not some hijacked piss-on(insert airline here) contest.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[empenage]

210FR8DOG:

To answer the first question: Pre-9/11 the airlines were doing well.

To answer the second question: Yes things will get better. When? Nobody knows that answer. We will have to wait for the next boom.

This is the third recession I've lived through. I got laid off in the first two. And "no" it doesnt matter who is in office at the time. When I was in college a computer cost 6,000.00$, now I can go to CostCo and get one for 600.00$ Banks were going under during that one. The party is over. It's time for the hangover. Will there be another party? You bet. How long will it last? Who the hell knows. But be prepared for the hangover.

I like to drink as much water as I can and take 2 asprin before I go to bed. It helps.

 

[Huck]

I've said this many times before, but in 1991 I took my first ride in an Aerostar, riding with a friend hauling checks out of BHM. I met a guy that night - he had gotten out of the Air Force (flying F-4's) and was driving a courier truck, waiting for a slot to fly a Cherokee 6. He had been waiting 7 months.

By 1998 EVERYBODY was hiring. I saw sons/daughters/protected classes going to United with 800 hours TT. I saw interns with 250 TT going to the right seats of our Brasilias and RJ's. Everybody got huge contracts with more money than they had ever dreamed of. I went to an ACMI carrier and made MD11 captain after two years.

We are in the fallow years. Build your PIC time, keep your record clean, maybe get another degree or start a part time gig. Keep your wife working, if she is. The next boom will make you a much richer person. If you feel like quitting, go ahead - this has to be crack to you, or you won't hang on hard enough in the lean times.

Above all - remember the words of Pancho Barnes in The Right Stuff - some SOB has got to build the thing, and some pud-knocker's got to get in it and fly it. By the end of the decade you'll be drinking on your houseboat and laughing about all this.....

 

[New2Flying]

After being in this industry for over two decades, I have to agree that there will be a rebound. From what I have seen, it takes anywhere from 2-5 years. There seem to be "mini-cycles" of recession every 2-3 years. Only the strong survive these recessions.

Hopefully some of the airline management have realized that the airlines have to "grow smart". The growth now will probably not be more than about 5-10% per year. I see a/c utilization going up, which can mean more jobs, since contractually at most airlines, it may not be possible.

Unfortunately, we are somewhat at the mercy of the flying public, who wants to pay less for everything. Every job these days is paying less, not just the airline industry. Look at the people in the Information Technology field. Those people were getting between $90k-$150k and now they are lucky to get anything that pays $45K. The lesson I have learned is plan for the bad times and do not live beyond your means, because one bad move by management can take your job away in a heartbeat.

 

[VADriver]

This is a serious question. If there has always been more pilots than jobs, which is what I always hear from guys who have been around a while, then how did pilot salaries at AA, Delta, United, etc. get elevated to the level they were pre 9/11? More importantly, how do we get back to those days or will it ever happen again? I love flying and I can't imagine doing anything else now. But a man has to provide for his family and this is all getting real depressing watching all these concessions take place.

I would really like some serious discussion on this subject please, not some hijacked piss-on(insert airline here) contest.

Thanks,

Jeff

You're starting your journey toward unionism. Which of course isn't the cure all answer for everything, but it's the only organization looking out for your interest, at least locally...nationally...there are issues....

 

[mar]

I have a couple ideas

I haven't been around as long as some of the other posters and I've never worked for a major but I've been watching from the outside for quite awhile.

It seems to me that the relationship between management and the pilot union is symbiotic. You know what I mean? They need each other. And over the years, as much as one complains about the other, they've learned to live with each other.

One thing the pilot unions have learned to do is to ask for the moon ($250-300/hr) when times are good and then give wage concessions when times are bad.

Of course it's all spin. When they make the concession they say, "Look what we've done for the company!" And not only that, but the $250 Capt will watch his $100 hr FO get put on the street and call it "payin' yer dues."

And then, after that, it's all a vicious cycle. The FO embittered about his career and financial planning must make up for the furlough and when he's back in the saddle again feels like he's gonna get as much outta the company he can...

...and so on and so forth.

I'm not anti-union by any stetch and I firmly believe the companies get the unions they deserve but I'm convinced there's a better way to do business.

I believe the last five years in airline business will be considered as revolutionary as the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 and the advent of the jet engine.

Will wages ever be where they were? I doubt it and I'll probably get flamed for the following but the wages will probably settle at a more realistic level.

After all, the two biggest operating expenses for an airline are fuel and wages.

Paying someone $300/hr on an 85 hour guarantee and flying them 50 hours a month is pretty dumb scheduling. It sounds like the dream job to us, but I don't want to work for a company that's run so loose.

I'd rather camp out at the leaner and meaner company for the rest of my career.

Now, I've read a lot about the "Race to the Bottom". I don't know. Like I said, I'm an outsider. That means I can see both sides of the coin.

All I know is that management loves it when pilots fight other pilots. To them, that's good business.

Fly safe.

 

[210FR8DOG]

Thanks guys. It's nice to see that others have faced this and made it through to better times. Deep down I know things will get better but right now it's hard to see that light at the end of the tunnel. I am staying with aviation. My degree and whatever "skills" I had before this are now somewhat obsolete since I've been flying full time for about 2 and a half years now. I always think about some part- time work-at-home job that I can do anywhere to supplement the income. My wife has been at a retail store for about a year and a half and we're hoping she can make asst. mgr. soon so that will help.

Good luck to all, I'll see you in the end.

And you guys can all come out to my houseboat!!

Jeff

 

[TonyC]

Re: I have a couple ideas

Paying someone $300/hr on an 85 hour guarantee and flying them 50 hours a month is pretty dumb scheduling. It sounds like the dream job to us, but I don't want to work for a company that's run so loose.

Staffing at min levels, i.e., planning on flying everybody at max hours every month, is pretty dumb scheduling. Consider the cost of running out of pilots when something or someone hiccups. One extra pilot sick. One extra leg added to the schedule. What's the cost of parking a jet versus paying for a few extra hours of unused work?

I'd rather camp out at the leaner and meaner company for the rest of my career.

That's your perogative. Don't forget your waterproof matches.

Fly safe.

Safely (You know, that old adjective, adverb thing they taught back in 5th grade.)

 

[empenage]

What the hell??

Did I just label myself as an "Old Timer".

Son of a B!tch.....

 

[210FR8DOG]

Emp.-yes you did, wear the t-shirt loud and proud man, I hope to join you soon!!!

 

[empenage]

OK...I'll wear the T-Shirt....

But I'm not dye'in my hair!

 

[VADriver]

Re: I have a couple ideas

Paying someone $300/hr on an 85 hour guarantee and flying them 50 hours a month is pretty dumb scheduling. It sounds like the dream job to us, but I don't want to work for a company that's run so loose.

Fly safe.

The company agrees to pay 300/hr and they set the schedules...you're right, pretty dumb...on managements part...

The SWA and jB (too soon to tell?) model seem to work. Compare a major airline pilot and a SWA pilots pay...over a career. Factoring a few zeros while on furlough really brings that major career average down. Add some stock or other performance incentives and there might be a good recipe...

Old School airline managment needs to change thier thinking... The pricing models aren't coming back (I think..) No more walk up biz tickets for $2000. The internet has also changed alot...

In my opinion, the UAL pilots need to say to management. "This starfish thing....let's make it SWA/jB-ish...." Not sure they can. Correct me if I'm wrong but the UAL guys think $2000 biz tickets are an economic cylce away...

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

Great thread,

You know guys i consider myself a "pro-labor realist". I agree that airline mgmt. carries more of a burden thatn the labor unions for our current state of affairs.....

BUT, When you compare jobs outher its hard to justify an airline captain making 200,000 +. I mean if we went by supply and demand there is no way in heck anyone flying a plane should be paid nearly that much. Not too mention that we have to admit that flying a turbo-prop in harsh weather probably justifies a higher income than being a baby sitter in an airbus.......

Anyway, as far as the future the top pay rates will probably be lower, and rightly so, unfortunately the starting pay rates in this bussiness, which are practically a crime........ will probably stay at poverty level.

The senior guys who are making HUGE money should stand up and insist that starting guys at regionals make at least a liveable wage, ie 30,000/year min.

They have the influence, they have suffered through the misery, and instead of saying "hey i paid my dues so should they", maybe they could try to improve things for the profession.........

just a thought........

 

[fly4ever]

FMR_RGNL_PLT

There are some good thoughts on this thread but remember that the airline pilot that you think shouldn't be allowed to earn $200,000 per year has to accept mandatory retirement from the "front office" at age 60. Your earning power can(more likely, will) take a substantial hit after that age.

I absolutely agree that those of us at the regional level deserve a better wage for doing what amounts to the same job that those at the major level perform. Unfortunately, the current atmosphere has encouraged many up and comers to take the fast track by buying their way into a regional right seat. Those that choose this way to gain the right seat have already shown the company their willingness to accept less in terms of monetary reward for the job thereby undermining any possibility of winning a "livable wage" at the regional level. This isn't the first time that PFT has been used by the airlines and it probably won't be the last. Remember, it ALWAYS gives the advantage to the company in the long run.

We are our own worst enemy when it comes to our job future and to our earning potential by accepting jobs that don't pay us while in training (i.e. working), or by paying for the "privilege" of sitting in the right seat of an airliner, or by accepting concessions while management continues to receive bonuses, etc.

Just some food for thought.

 

[AA717driver]

empenage...

I was at the bar talking to a Skywest FO and telling him about flying Bandierantes, Shorts and F-27's.

Suddenly, he blurts out: "Man, you're old school commuter". That's when I started to feel old! TC

 

[Huck]

I figure in 40 years I'll sit around some FBO and bother all the young bucks. Someone will say, "Didn't you fly Brasilias, pop?"

It'll get really quiet. "Yeah, I did," I'll say. "A real widowmaker...."

 

[empenage]

OK...yea I'm old. Not quite time for the dirt shower yet though.

The guy I learned from was old. Old and great! He taught me to fly in the "sandbox", Iran, Pakistan, India..this guy was a great teacher.

Whiskey for me, fresh horses for the men and a nights lodging! I'm trying to carry on his traditions as best I can.....!

 

[jetblue320]

Cycles

As in life, the airline biz runs in cycles. Like most of the posts in this thread have stated in a roundabout way, it is just where you enter the cycle. I have been flying commercially since 1982 after 2 tours as an army pilot. From my perspective, the early 1980's was a tough time to enter the cycle. Maybe I was just lazy, maybe it was lack of motivation, who knows. Trying to get on with the majors then was tough if you were a fair haired AWB without a degree. So, it was off to fly dogsh&t airplanes in corrosion corner in MIA for me. While that was happening, the airlines had a hiring boom and I couldn't get in the door without a degree or a minority moniker to use. I stuck it out flying freight, making pretty good coin for what I was doing and then it all dropped out from underneath me when a large brown carrier bought out my airline and fired us all. Then came jetBlue. My timing (or better put, luck) in this case couldn't have been better. The rest is history, or at least I hope it becomes historical for the right reasons.

You see, it's kinda like surfing: when the surf is up, ride the waves, and ride them hard. When the surf is down, you gotta paddle for a while. If the surf disappears, it doesn't really matter if you have a board or not. Right now, for me anyway, I'm riding a big one. Either way, you have to decide if you want to stay in the water altogether.

Hope this helps and sorry for mentioning an airline name.

See ya and Good Luck!