Question for ASA guys -- is this normal?

[Mel Sharples]

I heard something today that I just about couldn't believe. We were in Minneapolis and ASA called ground to say they would need to be towed to the runway because they didn't have nosewheel steering. The ground guy was a bit surprised but was willing to work it out. Then the ASA pilot said they would need "to be pulled into position on the runway and then they could disconnect. It should only take 2 or 3 minutes." I never heard how this ended but I have the following questions:

1) Is this normal to be dispatched without nosewheel steering? Do you get pressured by the company to accept this kind of stuff?

2) Can you not turn on to the runway using differential thrust and braking? (Honestly don't know. You can in some jets and t-props and not in others.)

3) What happens when you land in Dallas with no nosewheel steering? Do you have to get towed off the runway too?

4) What happens if you cheese one on takeoff? Do you still have centerline control?


Before anyone jumps me, I am asking these questions in all honesty with no malice. I am just very surprised that this would happen. I know it's legal but I'm surprised a captain would accept this arrangement.

Just so we are clear, I am in NO WAY making a judgement on this crew, this plane, or this airline as I don't have all the details and I'm not in their shoes. I'm just trying to clear it up because it sounded highly unusual to me and I was curious if this was common or not. Apparently I wasn't the only one as several people on the ground frequency had comments about what they thought of this deal.

Thanks in advance, guys. I don't mean any harm and I appreciate your answers to this.

 

[Ted Striker]

Wow, this sounds goofy. I cannot tell you 100% that the nosewheel is deferrable on the CRJ. It was on the Brasilia, but only for ferry flights (if memory serves). We actually practiced taxiing around with it off on the E-120. I have flown the sim on the CRJ with the nosewheel steering inadvertantly off and it is not good. I am not even going to speculate on what was going on there at MSP.

 

[anon]

Do you have a date and time that this occurred?

I'd like to check it out and see what was going on.

 

[sleepy]

It was probably a maintenance ferry flight to MCN, with no pax on-board.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Do you have a date and time that this occurred?

I'd like to check it out and see what was going on.

It would have been yesterday (Thursday, Feb. 26) at about 10:15 or 10:30 central time. It may have been a ferry flight but I never heard them say that, however that would explain quite a bit. I assume they were going back to Dallas (where it came from) but I can't confirm it so it could have been a ferry to somewhere else. I know another guy who heard the same conversation on ground frequency. He asked me later, "Did I hear what I think I heard?"

Like I said, I'm not pointing fingers at the crew, I just thought that was really, really weird and I'm curious if that was a "normal" op or not.

 

[MedFlyer]

The early morning MSP-DFW flight was cancelled yesterday, so I'm betting it was a ferry.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Did the flight number have four digits, starting with a 9?
i.e. Candler 9327?

 

[DoinTime]

Nosewheel steering on the CRJ has a MEL code but I've never read through it to see what the stipulations are. With the narrow main gear spread and tail mounted engines it is extreamly hard to control during normal taxi without steering.

 

[AutoTransfer]

The nosewheel steering on the CRJ is deferrable as long as there are no pax on board and it is flown one leg to a Mx station and fixed at that time. There are also other Mx stipulations regarding a visual inspection that the brakes work, etc.

As an an FO I don't get to taxi much. I think that making sharp turns without nosewheel steering is difficult at best. Maybe a CRJ Cap can chime in about that.

I did have the nosewheel steering fail on me once while landing in the snow and although it is a little more difficult to control, It is workable on takeoff and landing with differential braking/rudder authority. (Especially if you are expecting it to be inoperative.)

I can only guess that this crew wanted the tow team to escort them out to keep from getting stuck somewhere and holding up traffic.

In my snowy incident above, we were easily able to make the high speed at that airport, but we could not make the 90 degree turns required to get to the gate. We had a tow team come out and get us that time. The turning radius is significanly handicapped with N/W steering inop.

I hope this clears some things up.

Tailwinds,
AT

 

[Broke in CVG]

Had to do a ferry last Thanksgiving evening or should I saw morning.... DSM back to CVG.

You have the 7 deg ea way using rudder so TO and landing is not a problem.... Taxing is a bitch as the plane likes to wander and differential thrust and brakes won't help with a 90 degree turn unless done right. It can be done though if you carry a little speed and then get on one of the brakes hard... the problem comes when you aren't going fast enough and you get stopped 1/3 way through your turn. Now the only place your going is straight until you get up enough momentium to once again use the brakes on the inside of the turn.

 

[dbert]

First post here.
The MEL at OO was revised a short while back (about 12 months ago) to allow flight crew members to operate one flight without NWS (differential braking) provided they are towed from gate to initial taxiway, and from final taxiway to gate. There are other limitations as well, but prior to that there was no authorization to move the aircraft whatsoever. I remember hearing a story once where with pax onboard, to expedite the process a mechanic replaced the captain in the lh seat to bring the aircraft off the runway, towards the gate area where the tug was waiting. Now crewmembers are authorized to do this themselves.
BTW the 7º thing is what you can get using just rudder petals. You still need functioning NWS system. With NWS off, the NWS operates in free castering mode and has the same 70º left or right capability.

 

[ACE]

I do not work for ASA, but I would imagine the MEL is similar. Let me answer your questions the best I can in order:

1. Yes, you can be dispatched as a MX ferry flight. Pressure, I guess depends on the company and who you speak with. I don't think flying without nosewheel steering is a big deal. It's just a little bit of a hassle to coordinate the towing. Please remember we are just talking about the hand tiller.

2. Sure you can use differential braking and thrust. However, the question is, did the company train you to do so? The FAA will ask that very same question should anything happen.

3. This goes back to question #2.

4. Do you use the tiller for NWS on T/O? I would think the answer should be no. You will still have control just by using the rudder.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Thanks for the answers, guys.

That helps clear that up. I'm sure it was a ferry and I didn't realize how much of beeotch that plane is to taxi sans NWS.

Fly safe everbody!

 

[katanabob]

I flew that airplane the night of the 26th; the entries in the discrepancy log indicated that the airplane had been ferried back to DFW under an MEL provision. The airplane got back to DFW, maintenance was unable to replicate the problem, and it went out with us that night.