Question about logging SIC time

[QuasarZ]

So my dad and I are looking into buying an Aztec. The insurance guy said that I would not be able to touch the controls unless listed on policy on takeoff or landing, but whatever we do at 5,000ft is up to us. So would I log any of this as SIC? or would the portion after takeoff and before land be PIC? any info is greatly appreciaited. And I did search to no avail
Thanks

 

[SSDD]

There is no such thing as SIC in an Aztec. The airplane was not certified for it, and the operation does not require it.

Your dad could ACT as PIC, and you could LOG PIC time while you are flying. What your dad will let you do is between you and him. As long as you don't bend anything, the insurance company will never know...

 

[AC560]

Your dad could not log that time though unless he was a designated safety pilot or a MEI.

 

[avbug]

There is no such thing as SIC in an Aztec.

Not true.

The airplane was not certified for it, and the operation does not require it.

You don't know if the operation requires it, because the operation hasn't been outlined. A simple simulated instrument flight under 91.109(b) would qualify, and doesn't require an operating certificate.

Your dad could ACT as PIC, and you could LOG PIC time while you are flying.

Only so long as you're both rated in the airplane, your Dad acts as both safety pilot and PIC, and you're sole manipulator. Or alternately, you switch roles.

 

[SSDD]

Avbug you're usually right, but can be a jerk about it.

I'll admit I assumed a few things. I assumed that it is a part 91, trying to build time operation. The insurance company is willing to insure his dad, and he lists ME as one his ratings, and a high performance endorsement, so I assumed they are both rated in an Aztec.

Please help the guy out instead of jumping on me.

 

[svcta]

Yeah, Av, you really need to settle down a little. I'm sure we can all think of ways to complicate simple answers, but you're the only one who consistently does it. And it always seems to be in an effort to make someone wrong. In this case SSDD was not. At least I got the same impression by the question asked. By your additions you are correct. Know when to say "when". We all get tired of watching you masturbate on FI.

 

[avbug]

Please help the guy out instead of jumping on me.

Not a matter of helping or hurting. You got additional information, let it be good enough. No need to whine about it.

You asked a question about a regulatory subject...the devil is in the details. Get used to them.

 

[FlyinFife]

Not to hijack the thread or anything - but I'm having trouble why any offense would be taken by Avbug's remark. I did not notice any jumping, just clarification on a point. Oh well, my $0.02.

 

[nosehair]

You asked a question about a regulatory subject...the devil is in the details. Get used to them.

WHO-HOO-Hoo-Hoooo-hoo!! Thass' a gud'n!! Kin I use it?

 

[QuasarZ]

to further explain, this will be time building for me. My dad flies for the airlines and has 21,000+ hours and will not be logging any of it. My uncle will also be flying with me, he is an MEI and also flies for the airlines and will not be logging it. Thanks for the info thus far

 

[lawfly]

Well, what the insurance company says or requires isn't necessarily the same as what the FARs require or allow. If you're rated and qualified for passenger-carrying in the class of airplane, the FARs allow you to act as and log PIC when flying around with your father or with other people. But, other than that often discussed (on this website) safety pilot/simulated instrument stuff, there is no SIC on a Part 91 Aztec, i.e., the type certificate does not require an SIC nor would the operation. Now, if you are asking what happens if there's a claim made under the policy and you were flying the airplane at the time---the language of the policy would be a good place to start the analysis. Based on your remarks, sounds as if no coverage. So, legally, if rated and qualified: yes to PIC, no to SIC (except for the saftey pilot stuff). Insurance-wise: No, at least if a claim is made under the policy. There is something called an open pilot clause in some policies, sometimes for the occasional user or under specified conditions and with certain certificates, ratings, hours. You might look into that. (Also, since we're really talking about the policy and coverage here, check the policy to see if it speaks to the simulated instrument/safety pilot stuff. It might require the safety pilot, i.e., the "SIC" to meet certain conditions.) If the insurance company is not taking you on as part of the insured risk, then you might consider rather carefully how you log (if you log) even those uneventful flights. (Hopefully, all your flights will be uneventful.) It could be possible that if a claim is made as the result of a particular flight, and you are on board, the insurance company, if the matter ended up in litigation, might be able to obtain your logbooks and assert that you were in fact flying the aircraft and deny coverage (if you have consistently been logging time in the plane). It would be a credibility issue. Not saying it would happen. Just a thought.

 

[NW Flyer]

The answer is NO. You cannot log SIC time in the Aztec. But, why in the world would you? You are multi engine rated, therefore you are qualified to act as PIC in an Aztec. If you are in the front seat and operating the controls, then you are the PIC. Log it as such.

Does you father's policy allow him (I hope he's a current MEI...) or your uncle to give you dual in the airplane? If so, no problem then!

 

[QuasarZ]

my dad is not an mei, my uncle is. The only reason i asked about sic time was because the policy said for me to log pic I need to be listed on the policy which adds a lot more to the cost.

 

[A Squared]

But, why in the world would you? You are multi engine rated, therefore you are qualified to act as PIC in an Aztec. If you are in the front seat and operating the controls, then you are the PIC. Log it as such.

Couple of comments here, You're right he is qualified to act as PIC, however the fact that he is in a front seat operating the controls does not make him the PIC. It does allow him to *log* pic time but doesn't mean he is *acting* as PIC. There is a differnce in the FAA's eyes between *logging* and *acting* as PIC. Thre's a distinction there that seems minor, but makes a differnce when considering these questions. Overall, you're right, considering only the regulations, he could log PIC time in the airplane, but lawfly posted some pretty good reasons why that might not be a good idea due to insurance considerations.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I say log it, junior...

 

[NW Flyer]

Ultimately, it's your Fathers decision. It's his airplane, and although you are perfectly legal to act as PIC, or to log PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls (from either seat), Lawfly is correct in that the insurance company could theoretically deny a claim if they could prove you caused damage to the airplane.

Bottom line, if your dad hands you the controls, LOG THE TIME. He understands the insurance implications. If he is too worried about the insurance, he will either; a) not let you fly the plane, or b) pay a higher premium to get you on the insurance.

 

[QuasarZ]

thanks for all the info everyone

 

[Seadogrun]

Don't confuse insurance requirements with Regulations. Just because the insurance co. doesn't want you to touch the controls doesn't mean that you are not allowed to. You fly the plane, you log the time and log it PIC.

Having said that, if you bend the airplane you most likely find yourself (your dad) without coverage.