Question about airlines

[Leo R.]

This is just for speculation, but about how many hours do you need until the major airlines will even take a look at you? Are heavy pilots alot more appealing to the airlines than fighter guys? Also, if you are a nav, is it possible to get a job with the airlines? Thanks alot!

 

[ktulu34535]

nav going to airlines

I posted that question a while ago, you can search for it, I think its called advice for a future nav.

Basically the reccomendation is to try to get a pilot slot on Active and if you can't, make sure you get your CFI and Multi Inst certs, try to moon light at the aeroclub and then when you can get out and go guard/reserve while you build up your multi hours as an instructor.

Then when you have enough hours you can apply to the regionals and guess what, almost everyone in the guard/reserve at your unit that you know and probably are good friends with are pilots at different airlines and can probably give you a pretty good reccomendation.

If you want to know about specific airlines and their requirements, go to their websites under career services or job postings. The big thing is to get multi engine time and since most people cant afford to just go out and buy it, they instruct.

As far as being a NAV and applying for a job at an airline, you can milk it to show how you can be responsible for multi million dollars worth of equipment but you could also do that with many other positions in the military. So 1500 hours of being a NAV won't convert over to hour requirements for the airlines.

I'm going to be a nav and I'm not regretting it at all, I'll have a steady paycheck and opportunities to fly, well not fly but ride in aircraft as a part of my job. I'll have the opportunity to dink around in some Multi engine ac and get my time up and if I don't get a slot off of AD I will go guard and look to pursue my dreams on the outside.

It could be a lot worse, I could be assigned to be the Officer in Charge of cleaning latrines at Elmendorf AFB AK.

Good luck!

 

[great cornholio]

It is going to be a long long time before the majors will look at anyone. Right now all of the majors each have thousands of pilots out on the street. So they are not looking at anyone and will not look for a while. Some say like 5 to 10 years. However some of the regionals are hiring. Most regionals are hiring with 1000 to 3000 total time. As far as heavys vs fighters I would have to say that airlines like the heavy guys a little more. The main reason is that you fly heavys just like you fly airliners and you are part of a crew and therefore are use to working as a team and getting from a to b safely in a crew'd flightdeck. Fighter guys work alone and sometimes lack on the CRM part of flying.

Hope that helps. Industry is AFU right now but just hang in there.

 

[PA-44Typed]

great cornholio,
Read his profile a little more carefully!! He’s in high school! By the time he finishes college and gets a guard or reserve slot, then goes to UPT were talking 8 years at the earliest. No one can predict what the major airlines will be doing by then.

My advice…..
Go to college, study what ever your good at, make good grades, work as a CFI while in college and then when you graduate apply, apply, apply to every unit in the US.

 

[bssthound]

Navs in the airlines

Yes, a nav can fly for the airlines . . . . as a civilian pilot. He/she has to get his/her civilian licenses and go at it like any other civilian pilot but it's rather commonplace.


I'm a nav flying for ASA, where we have several navs. One of my best friends in my Reserve Squadron is a nav who is a Comair Captain. I personally know a Delta Captain who was a nav and hav met several major airline pilots who were/are navs.


I tailored my resume' to highlight the experience I've gained from my wso/nav time. I also elaborated on it in my interview so that my interviewer would have a clear understanding of the quality time that it is.

A huge advantage for Guard/Reserve navs is that our pilot sections are full of major airline pilots, i.e. contacts. Well, not as full as pre 9/11, but you know what I mean.

 

[AlbieF15]

Okay,

This little quote rubbed me the wrong way

As far as heavys vs fighters I would have to say that airlines like the heavy guys a little more. The main reason is that you fly heavys just like you fly airliners and you are part of a crew and therefore are use to working as a team and getting from a to b safely in a crew'd flightdeck. Fighter guys work alone and sometimes lack on the CRM part of flying.

I don't know about heavy pilots verses fighter pilots in hiring, but based on the fact the AF produces a lot more heavy pilots than fighter pilots (much to the shock and dismay of many UPT students about 1/4 way into UPT!), I'd guess the airlines hire statistically about as many of one type as the other.

The CRM quote is pure bunk. It takes a tremendous amount of teamwork and skill to work with a 2, 4, 8, 16 ship, or larger package and do all the required coordination across separate cockpits. It certainly involves a heck of a lot more cooridination, briefing skills, and task management than I see being used by 3 guys bouncing across the dark sky in a 727. It may be a different form of CRM than you train to in heavies, but its just as real, and just as vital. As an AF CRM instructor, I taught CRM to fighter pilots, and went to quite a few cross-tell meetings on the subject with pilots from other weapon systems including the various heavies. In fact, many inputs we made to the C130J system guys as they started integrating new technology into their cockpit was to follow the lead of the F-15E community when it came to integrating glass cockpits and multi-tasking in high workload enviroments (realizing that F15E guys have to use ONLY verbal communication as the non-verbal kind of stuff is useless ina tandem aircraft). So...fighter guys were making inputs to heavy drivers on CRM basics...imagine that! Briefing, task management, communication, risk assessment, flight intergrity and or crew coordination, and effective, professional debriefs are all hallmarks of an effective CRM program. With all due respect to my strat and tac airlift brethren, heavy drivers DO NOT have a monopoly on those skills, nor are they the only ones who appreciate their proper use. They may have started verbalizing the mantra first (back when MAC bought off on the ideas), but they certainly aren't the only guys using the skills.

 

[Spur]

And another thing...

While there are airlines (Atlas, for example) that specifically target heavy time, many airlines apply a multiplier to "fighter" time-- placing a higher value on it than any other type of flight time.

 

[Goose17]

back to the question...

Thanks for the sidetrack into a CRM lesson, but to answer your questions...


Q: "This is just for speculation, but about how many hours do you need until the major airlines will even take a look at you?"

A: The short answer; it depends... From what I have seen, military guys tend to get hired with fewer hours than their civilian counterparts. Military types tend to get a lot fewer hours each year and have been hired by major airlines with only a thousand or two total military hours. The required hours from the civilian side tend to fluctuate more with the competition. Like now, there is a bigger supply vs. demand (more pilots than jobs). Guys that were competitive previously with 5,000 hours may not look so good when compared to the competition.

Q: "Are heavy pilots alot more appealing to the airlines than fighter guys?"

A: No. I work at Fed Ex. As for the military types here, we have a very diverse background. I see wide range of backgrounds. As for other airlines, I don't think they favor any one type of aircraft. There may be individual Cheif Pilots that like a particular background, but they hire across the spectrum. As mentioned above, there is different weight or multipliers sometimes added to fighter time. This will enable a guy with only a couple thousand total hours to be competative with a civilian regional pilot that gets a ton of hours anually.

Q: " Also, if you are a nav, is it possible to get a job with the airlines?"

A: No... Let me explain; Navs are not employed at airlines. Pilots are employed at airlines. If a nav wants to fly at an airline, he/she has to go through pilot training - either military or civilian and get a bunch of 'pilot' hours. The hours logged as nav will probably count for something, but you still have to have pilot time and most importantly - PIC time.

As for other posts above. Not all majors have furloughed pilots. Some are actually sporatically still hiring. As for planning future options, factor this into your decision process:

The airline industry has proven to be VERY cyclical. It will rebound and there will be hiring sprees again. You must choose your route... If you go civilian, you will probably end up at a major airline a little faster, but it can be a rough, uncertain road. If you go military, you have a couple of options. If you go active duty, be prepared to be commited for about 11 years. You can also go the Guard route. Guard seems to be a good combination of both military and civilian. You can actually do both. Get enough hours in the Guard to get a commuter job and then rapidly build time and set your sights on a major.

Good luck and stay focused.

Goose17

 

[bssthound]

Goose 17 posted: " A: No... Let me explain; Navs are not employed at airlines. Pilots are employed at airlines. "

Thanks for clarifying that. My post definitely didn't state that clearly so I went back and edited it.

 

[THT]

Goose 17 posted: " A: No... Let me explain; Navs are not employed at airlines. Pilots are employed at airlines. "

Thanks for clarifying that. My post definitely didn't state that clearly so I went back and edited it.

Not to change the subject, but I was wondering how you liked being an RF-4C WSO? How were the missions, the aircraft, etc.?

Thanks.

 

[bssthound]

THT asked: I was wondering how you liked being an RF-4C WSO? How were the missions, the aircraft, etc.?

I absolutely LOVED it!! I was with the Air Guard at Meridian, MS. We had the best of everything. The best mechanics, crew chiefs, aircrews; the best people . . . period!!
Several instructors at the Boise Guard unit, where the Air Guard had its RF-4C schoolhouse, told me I was going back to the best Tactical Reconnaissance unit in the world. They weren't lying.

The aircraft were superb. As I said before, we had outstanding maintenance troops and crewchiefs, very rarely did we bring back a broken jet. The mission was great, also. We flew low, qualified down to 100', and fast, at least 480 kts groundspeed, often 600+. It was by far the best time I've ever had in an aircraft and will wager anything that it will forever remain the most fun. It took a lot of effort to stay on top of the mission, but it was so gosh-darn rewarding.

I'll shut up, now; the length of my reply is evidence of how much the experience means to me.

 

[skyward80]

This is just for speculation, but about how many hours do you need until the major airlines will even take a look at you?

I think the current official requirement for total hours in order to apply at UAL, DAL, and AA is "more hours aloft than God Almighty".

 

[bssthound]

Leo R. originally asked:
about how many hours do you need until the major airlines will even take a look at you?

Different airlines have different mins. Last time I checked Delta wanted 1000 hours of turbine time. Same with Continental. I'm not sure about American or United. Doesn't really matter; you can have 6,000,004 hours turbine, turbine PIC, whatever, they have folks on furlough, so you just ain't gonna get hired there.

UPS, FedEx, and Southwest, on the other hand, want 1000 turbine PIC. As a CRJ First Officer, for instance, I cannot log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls. One requires a type rating to log PIC. That holds true for any aircraft over 12,500 lbs. gross weight and any jet aircraft, no matter how light. In the airline world one must be a Captain to be type rated and log PIC.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Airline Jobs

Leo,

Apply early and often. If you go Active Duty 2-3 years out is a good rule of thumb. I got my ATP 3 years prior to my Active Duty Commitment being up. The only reason I waited 'til 2 years prior for the FEX is because the written exam is only good for 2 years.

When it comes down to the interview, depending on the airline, how you get along with others and how you use CRM effectively is essential!

I've flown at a major airline with fighter pilots who are great at CRM, and with others from military and civilian backgrounds who are truly awful to work with.

Albie makes some great points. CRM is being taught everywhere--some pilots get it, some don't.

From my experience as a T-37 IP, Formation CRM is a whole new ballgame. I'm sure pilot training IPs just saw the tip of the iceberg. I am extremely impressed by the level of CRM used in the fighter community.

One other observation: I have seen some exceptions to this, but most of the strongest UPT students end up flying fighters. I think most people looking at an airline application give additional credit to military flying, because most of it is not just point A to point B (especially in fighters).

Leo, keep a record of EVERYONE you've ever flown with, address, phone #, etc, because they might be working for your favorite air carrier one day.

 

[Bob]

It was my experience that the majority of the airlines preferred civilian pilots to military. At least none of the guys I knew in the Air Force ever got on with the airlines; most ended up going corporate or giving up and going back in the service. The "preferences" seemed to change from year to year, minorities, women, left handed....

 

[Steeler Fan]

It's a mix

I remember looking at the AirInc hiring trends, and it seems there are at least 1/3rd with military background.

Many civilians have Part 121 experience, so they've actually done the job.

The general observation about military is that they are extremely well trained in training courses that are very standardized.

I think it's a matter of:
1. Being qualified
2. Applying and updating frequently
3. The economy
4. Connections (sometimes...but I somehow was hired by a major, furloughed, then hired by another airline with a grand total of 1 letter of rec from one First Officer).

Getting the interview is sometimes/often out of your control. How you do in the interview is definitely within your control, so when that time approaches, be as ready as you can!