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Q400's are done at SAS!!!!

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WSurf

The Smack Down!
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Posts
3,690
SAS Will Stop Using Q400 Planes After Crash Landing (Update3)


By Christian Wienberg and Niklas Magnusson

Oct. 28 (Bloomberg) -- SAS AB, Scandinavia's biggest airline, will stop using its Bombardier Inc. Dash 8 Q400 planes after three crash landings in six weeks made customers ``increasingly doubtful'' about the safety of the aircraft.

The 27 planes will cease flying immediately, the Stockholm- based carrier said today in a statement distributed via the Stockholm Stock Exchange.

The airline took the turboprops out of service yesterday for the second time in two months after an aircraft, whose landing gear failed to fully extend, crash-landed at Copenhagen airport. SAS grounded the Q400s on Sept. 12 after landing gear failed to lock on two planes in four days, also causing crash landings. They started phasing the planes back in from Oct. 4.

``It's an extremely sensible decision; I would say SAS did what they had to do,'' said Dan Solon, an independent airline analyst in Barcelona, by telephone. ``Airlines depend on passengers trusting the aircraft.''

There were no deaths or serious injuries in the accident yesterday, when flight SK2867 from Bergen, Norway, made an emergency landing at 4:55 p.m. local time. Police said fire trucks had covered the runway with foam before it touched down and ambulances were standing by.

On Sept. 9, a Scandinavian Airlines Q400 caught fire in Aalborg, Denmark, after its landing gear failed. Five of the 69 passengers were injured. On Sept. 12 part of the landing gear of an SAS Q400 collapsed after the plane touched down in Vilnius, Lithuania.

`Confidence Diminished'

``Confidence in the Q400 has diminished considerably,'' Chief Executive Officer Mats Jansson said in the statement. ``Our customers are becoming increasingly doubtful about flying in this type of aircraft.''

SAS said Oct. 3 it will claim at least 500 million Swedish kronor ($157 million) from Bombardier as compensation for lost revenue and damage to its reputation. Jansson told a Stockholm press conference today that SAS is having ``good discussions'' with Bombardier, which ``understands our arguments.''

SAS, which, according to Jansson, still has Bombardier aircraft of other models in its fleet, will attempt to lease alternative planes to limit cancellations, which today totaled 53.

``I consider this a strong move by SAS, but also a move that may become very expensive,'' Jacob Pedersen, an analyst at Aabenraa, Denmark-based Sydbank A/S, said in an interview broadcast by TV2 News. ``This is important for the survival of SAS.''

Staff Walkouts

Pedersen, who rates the shares `overweight,'' said the SAS share price ``will drop'' when the Scandinavian markets open tomorrow. SAS shares fell 1.7 percent Oct. 26 to 113.75 kronor, and were trading 2.4 percent below their level at the start of the year.

SAS stock has lost 27 percent of its value since its announcement Aug. 9 that profit was hit by strikes. The carrier had to cancel more than 2,000 flights this year as a result of staff walkouts in Sweden, Denmark and Spain, which cost it about 300 million kronor in earnings in the second quarter.

Bombardier is ``disappointed'' with SAS's decision given that the incident is still under investigation, the Montreal- based company said in a statement today. Bombardier has not identified a ``systemic landing gear issue'' and ``stands behind'' the Q400 aircraft.

``This is a massive blow to Bombardier,'' Solon said. ``One of their important customers has displayed lack of confidence in their product and that's the worst thing that can happen to an aircraft-maker.''

`No Relationship'

Yesterday Bombardier issued a statement saying ``there appears to be no relationship between this incident and previous SAS Q400 main landing gear incidents.'' It said it has advised all other operators of the accident ``but is not recommending changes to their normal ongoing Q400 flight operations.''

``The Dash 8 Q400 has given rise to repeated quality-related problems,'' John Dueholm, deputy CEO of SAS, said in the statement. ``We can now conclude that the aircraft does not match our passengers' requirements concerning punctuality and regularity.''

Austrian Airlines Group, which owns 10 Q400s, isn't grounding its planes, spokeswoman Livia Dandrea-Boehm said by telephone. Augsburg Airways, which operates six Q400s, and U.K. carrier Flybe, which owns 35, said before SAS announced it will stop using the aircraft that they weren't grounding planes either. Augsburg, contacted later, said it was too early to comment further.

The landing gear is made by Goodrich Corp., based in Charlotte, North Carolina. Spokeswoman Lisa Bottle did not return calls yesterday or today seeking comment.

Horizon Air, a regional unit of Seattle-based Alaska Air Group Inc., which has 33 Q400s, plans to continue flying its turboprop fleet, spokesman Bill Conniff said. The company has an order for 15 more aircraft to be delivered starting in Oct, 2008 and has no plans to cancel that order, Conniff said.

Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc., a Denver-based low-fare carrier, has received half of the 10 Q400s that its Lynx Aviation unit plans to use to serve small cities in the U.S. Rocky Mountain region. Joe Hodas, a spokesman for Frontier, did not immediately return phone and e-mail messages from Bloomberg for comment.

Porter Air, a Toronto-based startup with a fleet of four Q400s, is operating ``business as usual'' and has no plans to ground its aircraft, spokesman Brad Cicero said.

-- With reporting by Hugo Miller in Toronto, Christopher Donville in Vancouver, Oliver Suess in Munich and James Lumley in London, Editor: G. Collins (prb/srr/jws)
To contact the reporters on this story: Christian Wienberg in Copenhagen at [email protected] ; Niklas Magnusson in Stockholm at [email protected]
Last Updated: October 28, 2007 14:38 EDT
 
Why in Europe and not in the US?

I don't understand this. Why are the Euros having so many problems with the Q400? I don't believe Horizon, Aloha Island Air or Porter out of Canada have had any issues on a consistent basis - right? Is it a maintenance or training issue on that side of the pond? Why the high incidence in Europe and not in the US? Non-patriotic rationale appreciated...

Sounds like there might be a number of Q400s available to US airlines in the short term. Perhaps Colgan, Lynx and others (maybe ASA or Piedmont) will get some cheaper aircraft soon... Any thoughts?
 
Not that I think it would happen, but Piedmont getting first generation tired wore out Q400's wouldn't surprise me.

Hell, we are keeping one of the orginal Dash 8's (either 3rd or 4th off the assembly line) 906HA flying. Highest time Dash 8 in the world.
 
Wait, I think it was the 4th off the assembly line. PDT was suppose to get the first ones however they didn't have APU's in them and Old Man Hesen didn't want a 3rd Party Contractor putting them in. They gave the first 3 to Pan Am Express. He wanted the APUs to be factory installed.

Well anyway....... Piedmont has flown the living crap out of that thing!
 
906 is serial number 009 airworthiness certificate issued 04/85.

It may very well be the 3rd or 4th off the production line after the flight test aircraft.
 
Last edited:
Sorry, double post.
 
Serial 001 was destroyed in testing.
Serial 002 was stretched into a "-300" and is stored in Tucson.
Serial 003 was (until last month) operated by Freedom Airlines out of JFK as N810LR.

Having flown 003, (which spent the better part of a decade in the salt air of Halifax without the benefit of wings, tail, or doors) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 009 can't possibly compare. (Keep in mind that prior to Mesa bidding for it, the airplane was supposed to go on a stick at the Canadian Aerospace Museum)

For a complete listing of Dash Serials and where they are, check out http://www.airfleets.net/listing/dh8-1.htm
 
Looks like ATR's stock just went up.
 
Piedmont will buy them.... they'll be deeply discounted. Cheap is all that matters around here!! Just put some new paint on it and everything will be fine.... that seems to be the thinking now.....
 
I don't understand this. Why are the Euros having so many problems with the Q400? I don't believe Horizon, Aloha Island Air or Porter out of Canada have had any issues on a consistent basis - right? Is it a maintenance or training issue on that side of the pond? Why the high incidence in Europe and not in the US? Non-patriotic rationale appreciated...
quote]

I'm going to vote for sub-par maintenance and not a design issue. I see european a/c on a regular basis and I have little faith in their maintenance. Heavy mx done in former eastern block countries where oversight and q/c is questionable. (aircraft come back with maintenance task cards not signed, aileron cables routed incorrectly...)
 
I don't understand this. Why are the Euros having so many problems with the Q400? I don't believe Horizon, Aloha Island Air or Porter out of Canada have had any issues on a consistent basis - right? Is it a maintenance or training issue on that side of the pond? Why the high incidence in Europe and not in the US? Non-patriotic rationale appreciated...


One theory I heard early on after the Aalborg and Lithuania crashes (which were determined to be corrosion related failures) was it was all the pressure-washing and disinfecting done in Europe to prevent spread of agricultural diseases. Pressure washing leads to water intrusion which leads to corrosion and fatigue, and voila! busted parts.

I have no idea whether there's any validity to this claim, but on one level it seems plausible.

Rumor is that the Copenhagen accident may be maintenance related, or at least happened on the heels of some significant maintenance to the same gear.

I don't know why anyone would believe rumors spread on flightinfo though.
 
I don't understand this. Why are the Euros having so many problems with the Q400? I don't believe Horizon, Aloha Island Air or Porter out of Canada have had any issues on a consistent basis - right? Is it a maintenance or training issue on that side of the pond? Why the high incidence in Europe and not in the US? Non-patriotic rationale appreciated...

No one is saying that Horizon is not having many problems with those things. The problems just happen to be everything other than the landing gear.
 
SAS Commuter has been operating the Q400 for years and years. Now they have a spike in problems and they want to ground those airplanes throughout Europe. The fact that the aircraft has been relatively problem free everywhere else in the world makes their decision seem very rash. Doesn't Flybe out of the UK operate a huge fleet of Q400s too?

Makes you wonder why they don't look at how the aircraft is operated elsewhere for comparisons. These problems seem isolated to SAS Commuter - that should tell you something - right?
 
well now you guys PDT know where your 400's are comming from. Congrats.

on another note: what a blow for the Dash 8. Here we Dash pilots go around saying that thing is a flying tank (I do miss the dash very much) only to have this (landing gear incidents) happen.
 
I happened to be in FlightSafety across the street from Bombardier when the first two happened.

Heard that the first two were first corosion in the main gear actuator. There were dissimilar metals, but other airlines always greased the joint so it was never an issue. SAS didn't and that caused the problems. For reasons unknown several Q instructors told me that the SAS pilots have NEVER liked the airplane and have wanted out of the fleet for a long time.

As several people have pointed out.. when there are dozens of operators ofthis airplane out there (don't forget ANA, they have 15 or so of these as well) and only one operator has problems with it you really wonder about the underlying issues. Doesn't scream airplane problem to me.

cale
 
Last 200 left about a year ago. All that and it was nice to have the NVS System also.
 

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