Piper PA28-181 Archer vs Cessna 172?

[DenverDude2002]

After a 2 year hiatus from flying, I finally have the time/devotion needed to finishing my pvt and start working towards my goal of working for an airline someday,I plan on flying at least 2-3 times a week until I am up to my CFII. When I trained 2 years ago I trained a a Cessna 172SP and hated it. I located a newer flight school at BJC that has 2 Piper Archers, and on a recommendation from a ASA pilot who had the same experience I did, am going to train in one. I sat in the Archer today and was impressed with how it felt, hope it flys as nice as it looks. I'm going up for my first flight next week. Can anyone tell me what to expect from the Piper as far as major differences from the 172? Anything I should be aware of as far as problems with the Archer?Anything I should be reviewing before my first flight with the cfi? Also I was using the Cessna program, and this flight school uses the Jeppesen. Any major differences there? Any good links to info on the Archer? Any comments?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[AlbieF15]

Two drawbacks to the Archer. First, you'll have to share a door with your instructor...you get in then he/she will follow.

Second...the airplane is such a docile joy to fly any follow on aircraft might seem "twitchy" by comparison. You will learn to love the Archer, and it may spoil you. The Archer II with the semi-tapered wing is a real easy plane to fly, and stalls are benign. You will get confident and competent quickly. However, if you don't control your Airspeed in the landing phase the low wing ground effect will cause you to float considerably. The Archer is so easy to fly is can lull you into bad habits by being so forgiving. However, if you can force yourself to fly as instructed vice what the airplane will let you get away with, you'll have a great time. Its a great plane to get an instrument rating and a fantastic cross country machine for you and a spouse or buddy. Filling 4 seats to share expenses is dumb with 180 horses, but keep the plane under its gross (2-3 seats, bags, and 3/4 gas...) and its a nice airplane.

I instructed (...way back when...80s...) in both planes. I like the C172 for short field/soft field work, and the high wing allows you to carefully selected where to land on soft/short fields. For the typical 2500 + concrete strip, however, the Archer is always a passenger favorite and a real stable ride. There is a reason Piper and Cessna have made so many--they are honest airplanes that will take you along at a less than breathtaking clip in relative safety and comfort. If you are renting...try them both out. I question your CFI selection more than Cessna if you didn't like the C172 the first time. Try the Piper a while, and if you finish your training in an Archer go give the Cessna another try later (with a different instructor than the first time) and see if you can find some things you like about it. You'll find being able to rent more than one type will make your weekends a lot easier when you want to go somewhere and your stable favorite is already checked out.

If you want to buy one...well...as longtime wannabe owner who hasn't taken the plunge, anything I offer is only conjecture. Both airplanes are still manufactured, so maintenace support is still out there. Cessna or Piper clubs are a great source of info for the pros/cons of various makes and models.

Let us know how the new lessons work out.

 

[DenverDude2002]

Thanks for the reply AlbieF15. I just didnt care much for the Cessna, though I do plan on getting checked out in one right after I get my PVT. I'd like to be able to fly both planes, in fact, the flight school also has a DA-40 I wouldnt mind getting checked out in either, the more planes I can fly the better. I want to retire as one of those pilots thats flown 50+ac if not more by the time I retire. I've just always liked something about the Pipers and finally I'm going to get to fly in one. KBJC has a very nice 7500 ft paved runway, so I should have some room for errors at start with ground effects. I was going to go with this flight school anyways, just turned out they had the Pipers. I'm glad to hear its a nice flying plane, I'm not going to be able to sleep now I'm so excited.

Anything I should be aware of as far as stalls go compared to the 172? The 172 freaked me out when it stalled, something about seeing cars below me going twice as fast on an interstate scared the living sh!t outta me.

 

[wheelsup]

Unfortunately, both aircraft stall at approximately the same airspeed...i.e. you'll see cars passing you in the piper as well as the cessna.

One big thing the cessna has over the piper is visibility...not upward but downward. I find most pax and customers want to see the ground as oppose to look up at the sky.

It is personal preference but honestly your first flight in a 172 shouldn't have been so upsetting. I'd second the previous reply of looking for a different instructor to fly the 172 as it is also a docile aircraft.

If you don't like the 172 you'll HATE the diamond aircraft. Talk about twitchy!!!

~wheelsup

 

[DenverDude2002]

Well it wasnt just 1 flight in a 172, it was approx. 10 hrs in 3 different 172's with 2 different CFI's. I do plan on getting into a 172 as well, for main flight training though I'd rather do a Archer.

 

[Palerider957]

Albie nailed it....go for the piper. (period).

IMHO, the Piper is a better quality product. I've flown both and MUCH prefer the Piper. Again, this is just personal opinion.

 

[BoilerUP]

I've got most of my time in various Pipers, but I also have prob. 200 hours of Cessna time with close to 100 hours in C172 R or S models. I did my private training and most commercial work in a Warrior III, with my instrument work and commercial checkride in an Arrow III.....then I went and did my CFI initial in a C-172RG and my CFII in a 172M.

Both airplanes have their attributes for training. The whole Cherokee family is about as forgiving as an airplane can be in flight; the stalls are benign, there is little to no tendency to drop a wing even with positive spin inputs, and the stabiliator gives a very positive feel in pitch (this gives people transitioning from Cessnas fits). Pipers also have manual flaps at 10, 25, 40 and that magical "fourth" flap setting (pulling on the flap handle to get approx 45 degrees), and I much prefer that to the Cessna electric-slot style flaps and much prefer it to the "one one thousand" hold-down style flaps on older Cessnas.

On the other hand, you could never use the rudder pedals in a Cherokee and get away with everything including crosswind landings up to 7kts. In any model Cessna, you HAVE to use the rudder or you can feel the airplane slip all around a turn, and as a CFI I appreciate that. I get so aggravated when I get students from other instructors that never emphasised use of the rudder in the Pipers. You can usually tell these pilots because they don't know how to land in a crosswind or operate on the runway centerline. Also the Cessna spring steel landing gear is much more forgiving to student pilot landings than the Cherokee's air-oleo strut. I've felt some landings where I thought the gear went through the top of the wing. Another thing I like about Cessnas is the convenience of two doors, and the ability to open the windows on a hot summer day, even in flight - this cannot be understated! A Cherokee is like an oven in the summer.

Albie was right about floating...for every knot above book approach speed you are (assuming calm winds), you can expect to float AT LEAST 75 feet. When I do accuracy landings in a Warrior, I fly it at around 55kts (book approach speed 63, Vso 44) to prevent excess float, and you can get plenty anyways out of ground effect at that airspeed. Its a sinch to hold that thing off...

As far as instrument training or flying goes, the Piper will whip the Cessna all day long. I dunno about the old hershey bar wings, but the Warrior wing on any of the newer Pipers is as stable as you can get. The Pipers are slower and burn more gas than comparable Cessnas. This could be a factor for taking longer trips, but if you gave me a choice between an Archer and an SP to fly a long IFR trip, I'd take the Archer and get there a few minutes later.

I enjoy flying Cessnas, and had a blast flying a 150 from GFK to LAF in May 03 coming back from SAFECON at the University of North Dakota at 1500agl. A Cessna is a great plane for sightseeing, pictures, speed or crosswind landings. A Cherokee, in my opinion, is a vastly superior instrument platform, more comfortable and is a better trainer because of how forgiving it is to mistakes.

As far as your training goes, it sounds like you have used the King CDs in the CPC program, I think Jepps are probably similar. If its a Part 141 school, most things should be familiar to you.

Best of luck in your training, and I hope you like the -181. By the way, if it has air conditioning, your useful load isn't jack