Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Pinnacle to pull FDRs after all Part 91 Flights

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Posts
578
I guess its easy to respond "if you're not doing anything wrong, what do you care" but it sure seems kind of spooky.

It begs the question what has been going on (or suspected of going on) to make this happen.....

Do the PCL CRJs have QARs installed? I can't believe they are going to pull the main FDR to download after every ferry flight. Or is this just a threat?
 
Sounds like a rumor. But in any case, don't you guys at Pinnacle have protection for this in your contract? At least for FDR and CVR data to be not allowed in diciplinary action?
 
I thought you said CVR. If it's the FDR, who cares. Just don't go to 410 or run the ITT's over 3000 and you should be alright.
 
I'm sure maintenance will be all over that one. And they are going to have contract maintenance come out to do it after a reposition flight to an outstation?
 
So is this like FOQA, or are they babysitting?
 
They're babysitting,,, or rather, looking for people to fire.

FOQA and ASAP hasn't been implemented yet, the company won't sign off on contract language for the LOA that prohibits disciplinary use of the data obtained from FOQA and ASAP.

The company says they'll begin pulling FDR's after all repositioning flights, whether conducted under Part 91 or 121. We don't have any info about whether it's in conjunction with 3701 or something some other "dumba*s" did on another ferry flight to trigger the policy.

Personally, I doubt they'll really do it unless there's a problem, too much manpower and issues with taking an aircraft out of service long enough to pull and download the FDR. Now doing a data download into the MDC (Maintenance Computer) that checks (among other things) limitations being exceeded is another story. If that turned up a red flag maybe they'd do more... JMHO.
 
I am not too sure about how long it takes... I picked up a bird not too long ago where they were pulling the info from the previous flight crew. They were willing to take a delay (if necessary) and the whole process including the paperwork was done in about 15 minutes. Granted this was in MEM and I had about 4 MX guys crawling all over my aircraft.

The reason I was given was a GWPS terrain warning at 10K necessiated the data pull.
 
WOW that stinks, how can they pull the data on you guys for no reason. This should be something to get addressed in the next contract.

Also, don't the FARs state something about the data for non-accident use.

Just wondering

D
 
Any company that pulls a CVR except where required by law, or is holding off on FOQA/ASAP, two of the best initiatives in the history of aviation safety, only because of industry standard contract language (LOA), is asking for trouble down the road. What I mean by standard language is non-disciplinary use only. ALPA has access to copies of many FOQA/ASAP agreements, and the DOS’s at various airlines are pretty good about sharing all sorts of info, so if it is worded in a fair, standard manner, there might be some other motivation.

The only acceptable exceptions for FOQA/ASAP would be an intentional-reckless act (e.g., a 45 degree pitch-up after holding her on the ground until Vr plus 50 or so), or a criminal act. The former needs to be as well defined as possible, and the latter, well, outside the USA there are big problems, and even here, there have been some actions that are cause for concern. The consensus is, any other disciplinary/enforcement use is unacceptable and certainly diminishes, if not ruins, the chance of establishing a positive and productive corporate safety culture.

The problem is international in scope and ALPA is very active in addressing these issues, as are other organizations. As a former 121 DOS, I say they (ALPA) are very reasonable in their approach to company-union relations in the safety arena. Even if I was the biggest management puke/bean counter on the face of the Earth (and I wasn’t…even kept my uniform/ALPA pin on after a trip and going back to the office), I would go for ASAP and FOQA because of the economic and legal advantages alone.

As between the company and the pilot group, see if you can find any protections for the FDR data, or the CVR, for that matter. Read the regs closely, or, call the legal dept at national HQ. I think you’ll be surprised…and disappointed. Even if sufficient protections did exist, there are still unscrupulous individuals who will do what they want to, regardless of the regs. It happens way too often.
 
Last edited:
Just wait, PCL mgmt will be coming out with all sorts of BS like this during contract talks. One of the last Flight ops memos mentioned that since we are starting contract talks the sick call/junior man refusal policy may need to be amended :0

Just one of the tactics that will be used to try and break down the pilot group. They been at it for a while. Anyone notice that in just about every things that comes from the company regarding the future, involves some jab at the pilots?
 
Last edited:
Carl_Spackler said:
Just wait, PCL mgmt will be coming out with all sorts of BS like this during contract talks. One of the last Flight ops memos mentioned that since we are starting contract talks the sick call/junior man refusal policy may need to be amended :0

Actually.. it is a GOOD thing they are changing the policy. The policy in it's orginal form was highly questionable and potentially illegal. Double jepardy type results to the pilot group based on progressive discipline.

When the new version comes public it will be a bit more fair and just and get some pilots out of the hot seat for 5th tier discipline
 
Inconceivable said:
I guess its easy to respond "if you're not doing anything wrong, what do you care" but it sure seems kind of spooky.

It begs the question what has been going on (or suspected of going on) to make this happen.....

Do the PCL CRJs have QARs installed? I can't believe they are going to pull the main FDR to download after every ferry flight. Or is this just a threat?

Sounds to me like the company wants to be able to point to something it's implemented in response to the flame-out accident before the final NTSB report comes out. Indications are the report won't look good. If the cause points to recklessness and/or purposeful disregard for procedures by both cremembers rather than a familiar cause-effect accident chain, then not only the company but also the FAA and NTSB will be supremely concerned that it points to a culture/attitude within the pilot group...it doesn't matter to them it was a ferry flight, these are the same people driving paying pax around. Nobody buys it that you turn professionalism On and Off depending on whether it's a 121 or 91 leg...you're still flying company equipment on company time.

This concern will be heightened if a second crewmember didn't intervene in the face of an obvious disregard for safety by a captain, or displayed a "go along with it" attitude. After all, part of what a company pays even new-hire F/Os for is to use their judgement with regards to dealing with Captains who disregard procedures/safety..it's part of almost any interview questioning.

They already know the crew didn't fly the repo trip as it was planned/dispatched not for valid operational reasons, but just because they felt like doing so. Word is, though, it goes even further than that. Displaying such an attitude will ALWAYS generate unwanted attention from the official oversee-ers if you're employed at a company involving common carriage. Their goal is to prevent similar events from occuring, and intervening if they suspect a culture of selective professionalism/safety does exist.

It's really not the point go have someone fired for doing something wrong....that's too late. The point is to prevent a similar situation from developing, and if that means putting into the pilots' minds that someone's watching now where nobody was before, they're going to do it.

You might also consider something else...the company will want to provide proof to the authorities that the accident crew was an anomaly if the event was pilot-induced, especially if it's a Safety Culture question. The authorities will be asking your company "What else are your guys/girls doing out there?", and they'll want to be able to say "Nothing unsafe", and in fact, vouch for the rest of you. If the threat to babysit/nanny-monitor empty legs forces the few that do disregard into compliance and no other incidents are found, then the threat alone has done it's job.

As professionals, you should recognize that in any large group bad apples do exist, that you can't monitor all of your peers. You should also objectively recognize that it's EXTREMELY rare for a perfectly-good, air-carrier aircraft experiencing no adverse conditions to wind up in a smoking hole from altitude. A subjective, emotional Circling-the-wagons won't get you far when objective professionalism is called for. Wait for the NTSB report, and then decide if cries of "unfair" are justified. It just might be that you won't mind having a mountain of evidence to back up what the rest are saying...that most pilots don't screw around on ferry legs...the pilots' word alone was only good enough up until the accident.

It really won't matter if you're flying the aircraft how they're paying you to fly them. That's just keeping up your end of the bargain, and doing what you promised to do when you agreed to go work there.
 
Well-said Yaak. The only thing I disagree with you on is the idea that MOST people DON'T fly the aircraft different when it's empty.

I flew for Flexjet for a while and have flown many reposition (ferry) flights at every other job I've had as well. MOST of those experiences have shown me that MOST people like to exploit the LEGAL capabilities of the aircraft in a way they cannot when there are passengers aboard:

1. MOST pilots will hold the brakes until full power is applied then release the brakes (short-field takeoff) and rotate to the max legal pitch attitude and see how fast the aircraft climbs to profile cleanup altitude. Nothing unsafe about it, simply enjoying the performance of an empty jet aircraft.

2. MOST pilots will roll into turns and pitch into climbs/descents faster than they normally would so they can get a feel for what the aircraft can actuall do. Seeing it in the sim is not the same as seeing it in the aircraft. Nothing illegal about it, roll and pitch rates and limits are observed.

3. Many pilots have safely taken aircraft to its max certificated ceiling when it's empty. Fact is, most of the time it WON'T make it up there unless it IS empty. As long as the altitude capability charts are observed, it's perfectly safe and legal.

Point is, MOST pilots WILL fly the aircraft differently when passengers aren't on board. The difference is knowing what the capabilities of the aircraft are, maintaining a safe and legal operation, and not being a "Cowboy" for lack of a better word. We'll see what the NTSB report has to say about it all, but I'm sure it won't be pretty for ANYONE, including the current employees at PCL. As long as it is fair, unbiased, and has its determinations based on FACT rather than on NTSB OPINION, I'll take it and try to learn from it as, I think you'll find, most pilots here will.

As far as the FDR thing goes, this company has proven that the threat of termination alone has been an effective deterrent. The sick call policy reduced sick calls to the lowest level in the entire industry and was especially effective in curtailing the "sport sick calls" which are the ones they were trying to get rid of (the guys who had two days at work in between 4 days off on both sides and would ALWAYS call in sick over those two days to get 10 day breaks EVERY month). I'd be willing to bet this is another one of those things they know they really can't do regularly but doing it sporadically and putting the policy out there will be deterrent enough.
 
As a former 91/135 Jet Captain, I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. On empty legs, we would fly the aircraft the way a pilot would like to fly it, not necessarily the way you would for passenger comfort.

I've certainly practiced "short-field takeoff technique" in an empty airplane. I've also practiced short-field landing technique in an empty airplane, especially going in for a brake change . . . If you ever flew for an operator that went into short fields, nothing like keeping sharp. I've also pegged the IVSI on a cool day during a climb- not something we would have normally done with pax on board.

Not once, though, did I ever violate any FAR's or limitations.

Come to think of it . . . and this will certainly give fits to "airline-only" types, but I have also done V1 cuts in a jet, and also stalls, but only as part of a fully-briefed training excercise. . . . not a "watch this".

Ahhh, for the days of real flying . . . . .
 
Last edited:
I take great comfort in flying the plane the right way, the first time, every time. Maybe that makes me a big ole pu$$y. It's not _my_ plane. I'll fly it how they tell me to fly it or soon find myself flipping burgers.

Again, it's not my plane. I'm just paid to do a job.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom