Pinnacle questions (vs. Eagle)

[davetz]

I know similar posts have appeard here, but I am curious what current PCL pilots have to say about a few questions, trying to decide between PCL and Eagle.
1) Can a new hire be relatively assured to get MSP base? Would prefer MSP to DTW.
2) What are travel benes at PCL? In conjunction with Continental?
3) I know about pay-for-training, etc. aside from that, what complaints do people have about PCL? I hear lots of scheduling complaints, but what does that really mean?
4) What do contract negotiations really mean for a new hire starting now? Is there a good chance of losing job in a year, or just headaches?

My goal is to fly for a major, and for this reason alone, PCL seems better than Eagle since the upgarde time _seems_ shorter. Looking for constructive ideas in order to make a decision, not flames and a pissing match between pilots/airlines..Thanks in advance!

 

[Lear70]

1) Can a new hire be relatively assured to get MSP base? Would prefer MSP to DTW.

I think new-hires are getting to go just about anywhere they want to go, but if you couldn't hold MSP your first month, there are vacancies every month these days, so it would only be a small amount of time before you could.

2) What are travel benes at PCL? In conjunction with Continental?

Jumpseat of course, pass privilege travel for you, your spouse or domestic partner, one set of parents (can't use your in-laws), and any dependant children on Mesaba and Northwest for $20 per leg, plus a $5 tax domestically. International rates depend on where you are going but run around $100+ for Mexico and the Carribean, more for Japan, France, England, etc. Continental is similar, but I think slightly more domestic, slightly less international.

3) I know about pay-for-training, etc. aside from that, what complaints do people have about PCL? I hear lots of scheduling complaints, but what does that really mean?

PFT isn't really an issue here anymore. Scheduling Complaints? It means you're basically Crew Scheduling's b*tch when you're on reserve. It also means that the pairings and lines tend to suck most of the time (a lot of stuff you can't commute on and 90+ hour averages on the lines and the high speed lines are mixed, meaning you'll fly one week of CDO's, then a normal 2- or 3-day trip week). The good news is that new-hire F/O's are sometimes only sitting reserve a few weeks to one month so your C.S. exposure is somewhat limited.

4) What do contract negotiations really mean for a new hire starting now? Is there a good chance of losing job in a year, or just headaches?

Mesaba started a year early and look how long it took them to get their contract. We're expecting pretty much the same thing here, although management will surely push for a quick contract in exchange for a promise of more growth. Most of us are dead-set against that and I think our union leadership would be drawn and quartered if they even attempted to put out a T.A. for that. Based on that, a new-hire that comes on in the next coupld months will be pretty well protected as far as their job goes, just don't be the last hundred people in the door. Also better start putting some money in a strike fund, some people don't think it'll happen, but there's a LOT of p*ssed-off people here right now who would enjoy a little time off.

My goal is to fly for a major, and for this reason alone, PCL seems better than Eagle since the upgarde time _seems_ shorter. Looking for constructive ideas in order to make a decision, not flames and a pissing match between pilots/airlines..Thanks in advance!

Upgrades are a hot topic 'cause no one really knows what the future holds. If you have the time now, upgrade might be REALLY quick, or it could stop at the end of the year and stay stagnant for 3-5 years, who knows. Eagle definitely has the better contract right now and it'll stay that way for a couple years as well. I personally think the upgrades will be faster here, but that's just my opinion... Good luck.

 

[another cfii]

Regarding MSP based, you will be able to choose between DTW or MSP, and in summer, you will be able to choose MEM as well. I think the only reason we may not accomodate more people in MSP is if we run out of space to put your crew bags in

"Scheduling Sucks" is like saying "Flying is Fun". I think as soon as we have more pilots on the payroll, the way scheduling can abuse you will lessen, as they have more new pilots to chew on, the pain spreads even out, at least that's what i think of it. Obviously, with all the new jets rolling on the property, i seriously doubt you'll have to sit reserve for more than 2 mo.

As far as contract talks, just as the last poster says, let the games begin. But surely, we have an uphill battle in the next few years.

 

[davetz]

Really appreciate the candid, honest and informative responses. Thanks. Makes the decision a little easier knowing there are people out there trying to help. Any other opinions on the above?

Also, anyone know of a good place to stay in MEM cheap during training? Or a good place to find an apartment to share? I've heard what PCL sends is mostly a list of expensive hotels.

Thanks again! Hope to see some of you on the line.

 

[On Your Six]

Fly the CRJ at Pinnacle. Eagle will take too long to upgrade.

 

[another cfii]

Even most of our PCL guys and gals have a lot to say about mgmt, but i think most of us really like our job, and the whining is just part of it

MEM has tons of crashpads operated by NW or Fedex guys. If you do get a class date, DO NOT go to the list of places HR recommends, unless you have a deep pocket or not afraid of getting in the middle of gang wars. Lots of crashpads in Germantown, but i prefer Southaven. Good luck.

 

[JJJ]

Most of the scheduling issues have to do with reserve pilots. ie extending into a day off. It is better for FO's on reserve than CA's. FO's are properly staffed, CA's are staffed at around 3.9 per A/C. As an FO your exposure to reserve will be short lived.

Upgrades will be faster here than Eagle. Mgmt is already sounding concerned about the lack of qualified FO's, and hinting at new-hire CA's. Most of the current new hires are lower time and will not have the time to upgrade for 2 years. In fact, I have not met one new hire that I can remember in the last 6-8 months that is qualified. I'm sure there are some, but they are few and far between. The last award for CA went to someone with 1 year and 7 months. There is another award for 15 more CA's that closes on the 4th.

 

[Lear70]

The new-hire classes have a LOT of guys who have extensive jet command experience and hold the flight time to upgrade. I think Nonconnah figured out they're going to be short guys at the end of the year and started shifting their hiring practices...

Several were hired without recommendations by going to the AIR, Inc conference, so if you've got the time, by all means apply! But be forewarned, you may be on reserve for several years!

 

[I Hate Freight]

Fly the CRJ at Pinnacle. Eagle will take too long to upgrade.

And you base this on what? Eagle is hiring 40 F/O's per month now and if my math is correct, they will need to promote 40 captains each month to fly with them. The upgrade time very well still may be "too long" but getting much shorter.

I HATE FREIGHT

 

[SigAV8R]

Most of the current new hires are lower time and will not have the time to upgrade for 2 years. In fact, I have not met one new hire that I can remember in the last 6-8 months that is qualified. I'm sure there are some, but they are few and far between. The last award for CA went to someone with 1 year and 7 months. There is another award for 15 more CA's that closes on the 4th.

Could the Gulf-Payers have anything to do with this? No flame intended (Sarcasm intended)

 

[JJJ]

Eagle is hiring 40 F/O's per month now and if my math is correct, they will need to promote 40 captains each month to fly with them.

Actually they should hire 2 FO's for each upgrade. One FO to replace the upgrade, and one for growth. If you had a pilot group with 100 pilots (50 CA's/ 50FO's) and they upgraded 25 and hired 25 there would now be 75 CA's and still only 50 FO's.

Could the Gulf-Payers have anything to do with this? No flame intended (Sarcasm intended)

That would seem to be the case.

 

[igneousy2]

And you base this on what? Eagle is hiring 40 F/O's per month now and if my math is correct, they will need to promote 40 captains each month to fly with them. The upgrade time very well still may be "too long" but getting much shorter.

I HATE FREIGHT

40 new hires a month isn't as much as it seems, remember Eagle has 2700 pilots. Assuming that all captains are in the top half of the seniority list, and all FO's are in the bottom of the seniority list, if you moved up 40 numbers a month it would still take you 3 years to be the middle guy.

Eagle has 3 or 4 jets coming every month until the end of the year where it cuts off to 1 a month. The company has already said that the Saabs are going to go away in the next couple of years so that will put the breaks on a little bit.

When I was hired in 1999 it was 14 months to captain in the ATR in SJU and 18 months to the Saab in JFK. I am still about 100 numbers away from captain (on the Saab). When 9/11/ rolled around I had been with the company for 2 years and was still a couple months away from any captain position. Pilots 1 month senior to me were awarded captain slots but never trained, pilots 2 months senior to me were stuck on ready reserve for about a year after 9/11/01.

My advice to anyone choosing a regional is to work where you want to work, don't chase the upgrade. There are so many variables that it isn't possible to predict when you will be able to upgrade.

 

[amcnd]

corection. Eagle is getting 4 jets a month the next 4 month then 3 amonth tell christmas 05' then we also hve 25 options on the CRJ that have delivery slots in 05'. the last 3 months we have hired 50 pilots a month. Eagle has 2475 pilots last prop CA is at 1650 or 4.5 years(JET at 6). I would still guess that it would be a 3-5 year upgrade for a newhire. could go to 2 if we gett the CRJ's split between 04'-05 instead of 5'-06'. CRJ ORD is the most junior MSP would be a easy to get to and from.

 

[I Hate Freight]

My advice to anyone choosing a regional is to work where you want to work, don't chase the upgrade.

That's good advice and has been my attitude all along. I'm close to 40 year old now, not a young guy anymore and when Eagle hires me I hope that will be the last place I ever work until I retire. If I upgrade in 5 years, great. If it's 3 years then so much the better. I want to work there because of the company, logistics and some personal reasons as well.

My interview is next week so I hope to see you guys on the line pretty soon!

IHF

 

[JJJ]

Here is my advice: Congrats on your interview! I know you are excited about the opportunity. Most of us have been is the same position. I will say, it is a little premature to make the decision of staying there for the next 20 years. Wait until you have been there for a few years and you might not be thinking the same thing. It is not out of the realm of possibility that you could have a 15 year career at SWA, JBLU, Airtran, Frontier, AWA, Alaska etc.
Keep your options open, 20 years is a long time.

Good luck on the interview.

 

[I Hate Freight]

JJJ, thanks for the good advice. I will definitely keep my options open in the future. That's why I said "I hope" it will be my last job.

I Hate Freight

 

[DTWFO]

Just to add a little here. 1) Our (Pinnacle) benefits suck when it comes to mainline NWA. They work ok, but you have to jump through hoops to do it. 2) Our managment is amazingly incompetant and will never cease to amaze you with their assinine policies aimed at making your life hell for no apparent reason. 3) You have to buy tickets on Continental at the NWA ticket counter and they are 25 dollars each way (unless jumpseating of course) 4) I don't know about 2 months of reserve now, but I was on reserve for a year....it can change by the day here because they don't know how to staff an airline. 5) No PFT anymore. 6) I don't know why you would want to bid MSP (uniform nazis), but you shouldn't have a problem getting it 6) The single most impressive reason to go to Pinnacle THE PEOPLE YOU WILL WORK WITH ARE THE BEST I HAVE EVER MET!!!! BY FAR! Yes, it is agravating a lot of the time, but your peers will make up for it. Good luck to you.

 

[JJJ]

The uniform Nazi was the FA's side of the operation. Not so much since LR was let go.

In MSP some people wear hats, some don't. NWA just make hats optional, shouldn't Pinnacle mirror this policy?

 

[ForgedBlade]

Rich,

Are you guys STILL on Reserve?!?!?!?!? **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**!

Hope all is well!! Say hi to everyone!!

JG

 

[davetz]

Thanks for all the input. I really apreciate the candid remarks and honest info.

Anyone else in the Pinnacle April 26th class? Anyone heard details yet?