Pilots with FSI/NJA training difficulty

[DLF8108]

Pilots who experience difficulty at FSI or NJA IOE share any of the following characteristics (regardless of background and/or age):

No FMS
No Glass cockpit
Minimal jet/PIC
No previous FAA Level-D sim training/checkride (formal training program)
Lack of currency (basic instument skills are "rusty")
Lack of recent training experience (flying the same acft for 10 years)
Attitude toward NJA SOPs (At location XXXXX, we did it this way)
* (You trainers/CFIs could probably add to this list.)

Pilots with 2 or more of the above WILL probably require extra sim/acft training (2 extra sims is usually the max)

Pilots who check 2 or more boxes MIGHT be a washout
(depending on the magnitude of any given factor)

Just one guy's opinion

 

[Diesel]

I have to disagree because it all boils down to attitude. You MIGHT need additional sims but the sim instructors work a lot with you. Only if they see you trying.

This is what I had when I came to NJA

No FMS --- NOPE

No Glass cockpit--- NONE the round gauges had glass over them

Minimal jet/PIC- NONE zippo

No previous FAA Level-D sim training/checkride (formal training program)- FORMAL? maybe if taking it around the patch and checking myself out then maybe

Lack of currency (basic instument skills are "rusty")- All single pilot so its a wash

Lack of recent training experience (flying the same acft for 10 years)- 7 years but it was variety but we didn't do much training in them anyway.

Attitude toward NJA SOPs (At location XXXXX, we did it this way)- Didn't have any other way of knowing how to do it.
* (You trainers/CFIs could probably add to this list.)

As an IOE guy i've probably seen it all. But if the attitude is strong you can make your way through anything.

Oh and i had 2550hrs. I really think it all depends on how much you want it. I had many IOE guys that were marginal but after telling them to relax and try to see the big picture they calmed down and we had some great tours. Some of those guys are the best captains we have here.

 

[cush]

I agree with Diesel, I had no glass, mostly turbo-prop,very little jet, and had no trouble with training.

 

[NJA bound]

No glass, no FMS, no jet PIC and no problem getting through FSI or IOE.
Anyone can learn glass in a few sims, and the FMS isn't that tough.

 

[turboshark]

Nja/fsi Training

Well Im A New Hire And I Had No Problems, Flew Atr-72's 10 Years Ago. The Only Thing That Was New Me Was The Fms. The Most Recent Airplanes I Have Been Flying Were Corporate Turboprops With Garmin 530 And 430 Equipment. Never Had Pure Jet Time.

Im Sure Attitude Is Important And The Desire To Learn And Be The Best Stick You Can Be For Nja Is To Your Benefit. But For Me, Fsi Training Had Its Challenges. I Beleieve Every One Is Different And The Experience They Bring With Them Determines There Sucess In The Sim.

I Believe That Fsi Will Do Everything Possible To Get You Through The Training Program. Every One In Our Class Of 18 Made It Through.

Im Glad To Be A Part Of The Nja Group And From What I Was Told 3 Days Ago In Review Training, You Have 4 Tries To Get Through Fsi.

Good Luck And Have (((fun)))

 

[Archie Bunker]

I agree with Diesel here.

I went through the X type course at FSI in June, and the only guys that tubed the checkride were 2 Capt upgrades that came from the Ultra. None of the SIC (new-hires) failed the identical checkride. Both of these Capt upgrades were very current, had plenty of glass and FMS experience, along with being very familiar with NJA procedures and culture. Why did they fail their checkrides? I don't know.....we're all human, and are perfectly capable of gooning up a V1 cut in a touchy simulator, or misjudging a circle to land maneuver at night at minimums in a simulator with limited visual cues. At FSI, when you screw up a manuever on checkride day, you have the choice of either ending the checkride right there, and coming back the next day and retaking the whole thing, or continuing and finishing the rest of the required maneuvers, then coming back the next day to retrain and recheck on that single maneuver. These two Capts came back the next day, rechecked on the single maneuver, and all was well.....not a big deal, except possibly their pride being bruised a little. The way I look at it is....it could happen to any of us.

Bottom line here......I don't think that the quality of new-hires is going down at NJA, I believe quite the opposite is the case. In my new-hire class, we had retired airline Captains, military pilots, regional Captains, and experienced corporate guys......an impressive group, all around.

Like Diesel alluded to, I think that the number one thing that will kill you in training (besides a bad day, or "checkrideitis") is a poor attitude. You're not going to impress any FSI or NJA Instructor by telling them: "that's not how we did it at brand X airlines, or that's a stupid way of doing it." My basic technique of ears open and mouth shut, along with actually keeping an open mind to the techniques presented by the instructors seemed to work well during my training. Good luck to all.

 

[satpak77]

deleted...re-posted below...browser problems

 

[satpak77]

uh...?

Pilots who experience difficulty at FSI or NJA IOE share any of the following characteristics (regardless of background and/or age):

No FMS
No Glass cockpit
Minimal jet/PIC
No previous FAA Level-D sim training/checkride (formal training program)
Lack of currency (basic instument skills are "rusty")
Lack of recent training experience (flying the same acft for 10 years)
Attitude toward NJA SOPs (At location XXXXX, we did it this way)
* (You trainers/CFIs could probably add to this list.)

Pilots with 2 or more of the above WILL probably require extra sim/acft training (2 extra sims is usually the max)

Pilots who check 2 or more boxes MIGHT be a washout
(depending on the magnitude of any given factor)

Just one guy's opinion

EFIS and FMS does not make something the Space Shuttle. Jeez. Is that what the "new breed" of pilots think?

EFIS is merely a different PRESENTATION of the information the round dials gave. Its still an airplane. Pull make, houses get small, push forward, houses get big.

Study, Apply yourself, study some more, make sure you and the instructor are on the same page, and you will be fine.

And, that applies to any airplane I might add.

None of this is rocket science. FSI is not out to fail anybody. This is not Miramar circa 1984 with Striker. "Good afternoon gentleman, the temperature is 105 degrees"

FSI is good people. Work with them and they will work with you. Amazing huh?

 

[FlyingFisherman]

My first jet was the Citation Encore. More powerful engines than the ultra and slightly different avionics package. I came right out of a 172/Mooney/Cirrus (15 hours) and had been a contract pilot in the Mooney and MEI in a Piper Apache. Once I got over the jitters of walking into the building with my name on the FSI nametag and managed the excitement of actually landing a job with 1400 hours I buckled down.

My class consisted of myself and a former Flight Options guy from the CJ. He helped me with seemingly basic items (what does an FO do? how does a crew work? what button does what on an FMS?) and we helped quiz each other on aircraft systems for the systems test. I didn't have any anxiety over the stick and rudder part of flying the jet. The speed wasn't that intimidating but I had no idea what my role as a non flying pilot would be or how to use an FMS.

Through the SITS and the first "normal procedures" sim session I worked the box exclusively at my request. I learned how to do the bare minimum for getting from A to B and set up waypoints using my own coordinates with to denote our maneuvering area. He took each flying leg first so I could observe and learn from mistakes WE as a crew made and avoid them on my leg.

By the end of the second week I felt very confident in the profile we were to fly, comfortable using the avionics and servicable on the FMS. The checkride oral portion was a non event though we did miss a few items on the walk around. Some things aren't as obvious as others...like the spider and web infested pitot tubes

I left with a type rating, confidence and sense of accomplishment. It felt great that I caught a break and landed a job. It felt WONDERFUL to be officially trained in a jet. A few hundred hours in all the citations (but the 500 and Bravo) I'm amazed at what I've learned since. I'm in awe of what I'll know in a few hundred more hours.

And above all I wonder how the heck I survived 1400 hours of flying alone!

While I was there a CitationShares guy needed to do a recheck as well as someone in the Excel. Don't know if it was NetJets or not but given the qualifications I'm sure those guys had (far exceeded mine) I'm sure I just had a good day or they just had a bad day.

I did see the red screen a few times...while sitting in the right seat fortunately

 

[hydrarkt]

I flew with Diesel when he was a FNG at NJA. If HE can do it, ANYONE can!!!