"Pilot's must focus on flying the plane"

[ILS JNKY]

CHOP AX

YEA FOR THE CHOP AX, GIVE IT TO THEM RITE BETWEEN THE EYES.

IT EVEN MADE THE WALLSTREET JOURNIAL WHEN IT HAPPENED.

 

[Timebuilder]

350, that looks great on paper.

How do you suppose that this will be done effectively, i.e., not along guidelines of the PC crowd, so that addtional protection will be unnecessary? Will we strip search every man, woman and child? Will we search every bag? Put 20,000 new detection dogs to work? Put a $200 surcharge on each ticket to pay for it all?

Just supose that we could do any or all of these things. How many people would be willing to submit themselves to procedures which are more Orwellian than we already have? How many Americans will be flying?

In order for the addtional measures, such as a gun, to be unnecessary at 30,000 feet, you have to first be able to assure that a threat does not board the airplane. What does El AL do? First, they specifically target terrorists by profile, which we will not do. Second, they search invasively. Third, they make certain that armed security is on EVERY flight, not 1%, 5%, or 10% of flights.

So far, it doesn't look good for what you are supporting. So far, the gun in the hands of a trained crewman looks like a good last line of defense. I wish this were not so, because it is a sad commentary on the state of the world we live in. It is, however, the world we do live in.

 

[Dep676]

Crash Axe

I like that idea too. I vote for the nice sharp side instead of the blunt side. That way we don't have to support the idiot in prison. Stick in as far as you can and then put him six feet under.

 

[xhercdriver]

The argument has to be approached logically, instead of with histrionics designed to evoke some emotional or contrived response.

First, the airlines would never be able to do this (from a legal standpoint) unless they required you to be "qualified" to carry the firearm. That means a training course and (at least) annual requalification. Besides which, if you're clever enough to operate an aircraft, I have to tell you, you're going to be able to "master" a firearm well enough to hit a target 3 feet away. It just isn't brain surgery. So the "what about the pilot who never fired a gun?" argument is moot.

Next, the object is to defend the cockpit so that the other pilot can immediately land the plane, not to go out and play "Diehard" with the hijackers. The passengers are the first line of defense (sad, but true), the (supposedly) armored door is the second, and the armed pilot is the last hope. Do you really want to NOT have that last line of defense? So the "shooting up the back end of the plane" argument is also moot.

Finally, as with virtually everything else on the plane, the final decision on whether or not to use deadly force will rest with the Captain. Given that there is probably now a fairly high percentage of captains who would intentionally destroy the aircraft rather than surrender control of it so it could be used as a bomb later, wouldn't you rather have another option before that "endgame" scenario?

Funny how folks whose careers revolve around doing something very technical in a very regulated, regimented, deliberate, precise manner, immediately jump to the conclusion that the concept of armed pilots would be implemented in some sort of haphazard, "cowboy" fashion, and that the same folks you trust to make hundreds of pretty important decisions each day couldn't be trusted to use that same degree of judgement regarding the use of a firearm in an "emergency situation."

Personally, I didn't have any desire to be armed in the cockpit in the military, and I don't have any desire to be armed now. That said, we all have to do things we'd rather not do, and if one of those things is to be in some kind of "combat situation" inflight, I'd just as soon not have to bring a fire extinguisher to a box-cutter fight.

At the very least, it would make those security checkpoint "discussions" a little more "interesting," eh? I doubt you'll get your ID card plucked off of your shirt when you're packin' heat

 

[capt_zman]

You make some excellent points, but just take a quick look at dep767's posts. Sounds like he'd put a slug in your head for unbuckling the seat belt with the sign still on.

You are absolutely correct about it not being rocket science, but when placed in an extremely high stress or life/death situation, you just don't know how people are going to react. This is too much of a wild card for someone with little firearm training. Hardly a moot point.

It's actually funny, back in college working as a bouncer at a pretty rough night club, I use to witness the smallest bouncers get the biggest balls when they strapped on the 9mm at the first sign of trouble. Tell me the same sort of thing isn't possible in this situation?

 

[Dep676]

No I am not saying that I would put a slug in you for un-buckling your seat belt. Unless you deserved it. It doesn't take much training to get proficient with a weapon though. I am just saying that we need to quit being MR. NICEGUY and get rid of some of these SOB's. Just make an example out of a few of them and people might think twice about doing anything stupid again. But I am a reserve deputy for my county and they don't train us shoot to wound. If you have to draw your weapon and fire it. You shoot to kill. Because you aren't just going to draw your weapon and shoot him to wound him. If your firing your killing. Because it's your life or theirs. And it's not going to be me getting carried away in the body bag. It's going to be his body.

 

[publisher]

Arguments

This is not as simple as we have posted here. The quandry is this. There is no question that pilots acutally carrying the guns is not workable for a bunch of reasons.

That leaves the box in the cockpit plan. Naturally we are not going to give out a bunch of keys to this box right.

OK tell me how hard it is to get a cockpit key. That is how easy it is to get a gun box key. So, now we are going to have a bunch of people with access to it.

You know all those aircraft sitting empty around the airport, we cannot get in them right. More likely you need the gun, open the box, and it is gone. OK, no we will make it a check list item.
We will open our gun case and check it out. Whoops it went off and drilled the F/O. No problem, we have a good many of them on the street.

Now to shoot the guy, we have to open the door. Bang, where the h did that guy come from. Now he has two guns.

Let's just turn down the pressurization and put everyone in a comma,,,,,

 

[Orvilleflyer]

This thing is so stupid. Some people just don't get it. A Boeing 767 is crashed into the water, caught on tape no less, the reasons being that the crew was getting their #ss kicked all the way down, and there are still people who question having leathal force in the flight deck.

Fine, so be it. It's just not worth getting worked up about, trying to figure out how you people think.

WE are not "gun toting" quick draws ready to climb out of our seats and go on a shooting rampage in the back when the FA's getting her throat slit... That's just not it. Just like the other fella said, we're only talking about a lock box, with a specially manufactured weapon, only issued to airlines. Bullets are soft but leathal, kept separately. Person makes it into flight deck = Opening box, loading weapon, using weapon to save the day, when there's no options anymore.

That's all....

 

[kilomike]

Other ideas for weapons aboard

For now, the issue of guns in the cockpit is sort of a dead issue so let's think of some other "weapons" that are available in the cockpit and the cabin....I'm mostly speaking from a cabin perspective so here goes:

First for the obvious: Crash ax, Sharp side in head--chop the brains out of that bum!

Toiletries like hair spray or how about Tabasco sauce?? Those in someone's eyes will leave them writhing in pain. What about alcoholic beverages?? I'm sure that must leave a good sting in the eyes as well.

Nothing like a shod foot right into the groin---OOOOOWWWWW!

Shove some of those heavy food carts and run the b*stards over.

And of course the good old fist/hands. One trick is to distract the bozo and grab its (they are subhuman so would be referred to as "it") neck and squeeze with all your might.

There are plenty of lines of defense if you get creative and think on your feet. Of course if I was a pilot and knew how to use the gun I would not hesitate to if I needed to and knew that I could get the animal without getting an innocent passenger in the process.

 

[RJPilott]

no keys for the lock box. Combination locks! Combinations are changed on every daily check or airworthiness check as a routine mx item. The new combo is submitted to Dispatch and sent to the crew via the release. The combo is then tested by the crew during cockpit prep checklist. Viola! key problem solved....

as for the "missing gun"... treat it as any other item missing on the airplane when checked during crew change. If your ax is missing, if your life vest is missing, if your fire extiguisher is missing, if your FO is missing... what do you do?

please people.. think.. its really simple