pilots discretion

[pc12_driver]

just another "senior moment" but here goes:

Cruising at FL280, ATC gives ' descend pilots discretion to FL180'. What do the regs say?

Please don't flame to hard!!

 

[bluelake]

I dont think any FAR is applicable, at least one that comes to mind. The Pilot Controller Glossary says this..

"When used in conjunction with altitude assignments, means that ATC has offered the pilot the option of starting climb or descent whenever he wishes and conducting the climb or descent at any rate he wishes. He may temporarily level off at any intermediate altitude. However, once he has vacated an altitude, he may not return to that altitude."

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Ahh, the hell with it. Trying to have a discussion anymore is like winning the special olympics.

 

[Pedro]

Also keep in mind, from the point of the "PD" to the "assigned" altitude, may not give you adequete terrain clearance.

That's interesting, got a link? Notflaming, reallywant to know.

 

[satpak77]

Also keep in mind, from the point of the "PD" to the "assigned" altitude, may not give you adequete terrain clearance.

ATC would not give this clearance if it did not provide terrain clearance

you are still under IFR handling. Traffic and Terrain (TNT) is ATCs responsibility under IFR, its all yours under VFR. Of course we have a obvious responsibility to back up and verify ATC and maintain an awareness of terrain at all times.

"IFR" and "VFR" concern HANDLING. IMC and VMC concern actual visual conditions.

The question was not "maintain VMC conditions and decend to XXXX altitude" or "November XXX, are you able to maintain terrain clearance visually?", it was PD to XXX altitude. XXX Altitude would be at or above the MVA, MSA, or MEA that applies in the area.

 

[avbug]

Also keep in mind, from the point of the "PD" to the "assigned" altitude, may not give you adequete terrain clearance.

If ATC provides the clearance "Descend and maintain Flight Level 180," you have adequate terrain separation down to Flight Level 180.

If ATC provides the clearance, "Pilots Discretion, descend and maintain flight level 180," you have adequate terrain separation down to Flight Level 180.

What's the difference with respect to terrain separation and the clearance? There isn't any.

If ATC tells you to maintain your own terrain separation, that's another matter entirely.

FAA Order 7110.65P:

4-5-7. ALTITUDE INFORMATION
Issue altitude instructions as follows:

d. A specified altitude over a specified fix for that portion of a descent clearance where descent at pilot's discretion is permissible. At any other time it is practicable, authorize climb/descent at pilot's discretion.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLIMB/DESCEND AT PILOT'S DISCRETION.

EXAMPLE-
"United Four Seventeen, descend and maintain six thousand."

NOTE-
The pilot is expected to commence descent upon receipt of the clearance and to descend at the suggested rates specified in the AIM, para 4-4-9, Adherence to Clearance, until reaching the assigned altitude of 6,000 feet.

EXAMPLE-
"United Four Seventeen, descend at pilot's discretion, maintain six thousand."

NOTE-
The pilot is authorized to conduct descent within the context of the term "at pilot's discretion" as described in the AIM.

EXAMPLE-
"United Four Seventeen cross Lakeview V-O-R at or above flight level two zero zero, descend and maintain six thousand."

NOTE-
The pilot is authorized to conduct descent "at pilot's discretion" until reaching Lakeview VOR. The pilot must comply with the clearance provision to cross the Lakeview VOR at or above FL 200, and after passing Lakeview VOR, the pilot is expected to descend at the rates specified in the AIM until reaching the assigned altitude of 6,000 feet.

EXAMPLE-
"United Four Seventeen, cross Lakeview V-O-R at and maintain six thousand."

NOTE-
The pilot is authorized to conduct descent "at pilot's discretion," but must comply with the clearance provision to cross Lakeview VOR at 6,000 feet.

EXAMPLE-
"United Four Seventeen, descend now to flight level two seven zero, cross Lakeview V-O-R at or below one zero thousand, descend and maintain six thousand."

NOTE-
The pilot is expected to promptly execute and complete descent to FL 270 upon receipt of the clearance. After reaching FL 270, the pilot is authorized to descend "at pilot's discretion" until reaching Lakeview VOR. The pilot must comply with the clearance provision to cross Lakeview VOR at or below 10,000 feet. After Lakeview VOR, the pilot is expected to descend at the rates specified in the AIM until reaching 6,000 feet.

NOTE-
1. A descent clearance which specifies a crossing altitude authorizes descent at pilot's discretion for that portion of the flight to which the crossing altitude restriction applies.
2. Any other time that authorization to descend at pilot's discretion is intended, it must be specifically stated by the controller.
3. The pilot may need to know of any future restrictions that might affect the descent, including those that may be issued in another sector, in order to properly plan a descent at pilot's discretion.
4. Controllers need to be aware that the descent rates in the AIM are only suggested and aircraft will not always descend at those rates.

REFERENCE-
P/CG Term- Pilot's Discretion.

e. When a portion of a climb/descent may be authorized at the pilot's discretion, specify the altitude the aircraft must climb/descend to followed by the altitude to maintain at the pilot's discretion.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLIMB/DESCEND NOW TO (altitude), THEN CLIMB/DESCEND AT PILOT'S DISCRETION MAINTAIN (altitude).

EXAMPLE-
"United Three Ten, descend now to flight level two eight zero, then descend at pilot's discretion maintain flight level two four zero."

NOTE-
1. The pilot is expected to commence descent upon receipt of the clearance and to descend at the suggested rates specified in the AIM, para 4-4-9, Adherence to Clearance, until reaching FL 280. At that point, the pilot is authorized to continue descent to FL 240 within the context of the term "at pilot's discretion" as described in the AIM.
2. Controllers need to be aware that the descent rates in the AIM are only suggested and aircraft will not always descend at those rates.

f. When the "pilot's discretion" portion of a climb/descent clearance is being canceled by assigning a new altitude, inform the pilot that the new altitude is an "amended altitude."

EXAMPLE-
"American Eighty Three, amend altitude, descend and maintain Flight Level two six zero."

NOTE-
American Eighty Three, at FL 280, has been cleared to descend at pilot's discretion to FL 240. Subsequently, the altitude assignment is changed to FL 260. Therefore, pilot's discretion is no longer authorized.

PILOT'S DISCRETION - When used in conjunction with altitude assignments, means that ATC has offered the pilot the option of starting climb or descent whenever he/she wishes and conducting the climb or descent at any rate he/she wishes. He/she may temporarily level off at any intermediate altitude. However, once he/she has vacated an altitude, he/she may not return to that altitude.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

.......

 

[172driver]

they cleared us to descend at pilot's discretion for a visual approach.

I don't think this is the same scenario we were talking about, in which a PD descent to a specific (safe) altitude is given. Obviously, once cleared for a visual approach, it's your baby.

 

[minitour]

I don't think this is the same scenario we were talking about, in which a PD descent to a specific (safe) altitude is given. Obviously, once cleared for a visual approach, it's your baby.

Yeah a visual is a bit different. Just last night we had the field in sight from 20 miles out at 5000' and were cleared for the visual approach...would it make sense to start down at 500fpm? Hardly...there's no "guarantee" of terrain clearance there.

-mini

 

[DC8 Flyer]

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