PFT in disguise

[shroomwell]

I started this thread to vent a little.

I think these stupid bridge programs are PFT in disguise. These kids get there parents to part with 50 grand or more so they can go to DCA, or wherever ( I don't know them all). So they can get hired with 500 hours.

Its a crock and the airlines are supporting it. It really annoys me when there are two different sets of hiring standards, one for PFT's and one for the rest of us. Essentially they are telling me and everyone else like me that the PFT's at 500 hours are just as experienced and competent as us with 2000 hours.

B.S. I don't know for a fact but I am 90% sure that the airlines get a kickback from the flight schools for hiring these wonder boys and girls.

I think the unions should not let these PFT's join. Since essentially they are degrading our profession. Hopefully as time moves on there will be enough of us to fight the PFT's. The old timers don't really understand it yet since it is relatively new.

Please respond

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm not fond of the idea, either.

I almost took an instructing job in early 2001 at a school outside of DC (man, am I glad I didn't do that) that fed their instructors to ATA. It wasn't truly PFT, but the poor instructors were supposedly "interns" in an area that has a very high cost of living, unless, that is, you were a qualified minority, and the government paid for your rent. Essentially, the typical Hispanic or Vietnamese family paid nothing, and for me the rent would be $700 plus utilities.

So, in fact, most of the instructors were the kids of wealthy parents who lived at home nearby, and essentially had no expenses and were not bothered by the "intern" wage, which was just above slave. All to get a 121 job at a regional!!

Makes you wonder what's in the water....

 

[secks]

shroomwell:

Good premise for a thread. This should be a hot one.

I think the first issue that needs to be addressed here is "PFT". A much better acronym is "PFJ" (pay for job). After all, why is it that pilots hate PFT/PFJ so much? 1) It depresses pilot wages 2) It displaces better-qualified pilots. Based on these criteria, PFJ, not PFT, is the better-fitting acronym.

There's nothing wrong with a kid who is willing to spend $50k of his parents' money on flight school. If it's their perogative, fine (talk about stupid parents, though ).

The problem with MPD, PACE, etc. is that you are essentially paying for an interview (on top of training). As many will tell you, the interview is basically equivalent to receiving a job offer, unless you do something stupid. So really, the student is paying for a job. The result? A pilot with low hours who will work for a low wage at an airline. Not exactly a good thing for the pilot market. As shroomwell said, there is a double standard here.

In my opinion, there's an even more insidious problem with hiring practices at the moment: favoritisim. You know, having your resume walked in, or using a family connection to get an aviation job. It's a shame that this is common practice, as it definitely displaces qualified pilots, and may depress pilot wages (since the new employee wasn't the top choice, he may accept a lower wage). Isn't this precisely why pilots hate PFJ? Thus, if you hate PFJ for the above criteria, then you sure as h*ll ought to hate favoritism.

 

[shroomwell]

Thanks for the replys guys, I also put the same thread in the regionals forum, so use that one it will probably be more active.

Just wanted to add. These wonder kids are probably not even as good of pilots as others with low time. They fly with low time instructors and probably don't get the best instruction.

Also if the schools cost so much how come they still train in C172's and PA44 and all the thing we fly for less money. Hmmm where does that extra money go? I know they don't pay it to the CFI's.

 

[bobbysamd]

Oh, boy, another P-F-T discussion!!!

. . . . which is fine. To paraphrase Will Rogers, I've never met a P-F-T discussion I didn't like.

The following comments need to be parsed a little.

I think these stupid bridge programs are PFT in disguise. These kids get there parents to part with 50 grand or more so they can go to DCA, or wherever ( I don't know them all). So they can get hired with 500 hours.

I do not care especially for DCA, fka Comair Aviation Academy, but fair is fair. For one thing, Comair is not P-F-T. Students have to go through the complete program through CFI before they can even be considered for hire for flight instructing. They have to politick their way into that, then work for the princely wage of $10 per hour to build the 800 additional hours or so before Comair Airlines will consider them for hire.

All that notwithstanding, Comair does not fall under the generally-accepted two-prong P-F-T test. That test is: (1) money must exchange hands between applicant and employer as a condition of employment to defray company training expenses, and (2) the training obtained is specific only to that company and does not lead to a certificate, rating or operating privilege that can be marketed elsewhere. All certificates and ratings obtained at Comair can be marketed anywhere. While Comair might be a crock to a great many people, it is not P-F-T.

Its a crock and the airlines are supporting it.

Sure, it's a crock. The venerable Kit Darby set forth in this article how airlines established P-F-T originally to save money on training expenses. That is most definitely a crock; training expenses are a cost of doing business, deductable from gross income, and fully tax-deductable. Compare with P-F-T, which turns the training department into a profit center.

It really annoys me when there are two different sets of hiring standards, one for PFT's and one for the rest of us. Essentially they are telling me and everyone else like me that the PFT's at 500 hours are just as experienced and competent as us with 2000 hours.

But it can be argued that after training is completed and check rides are passed that all are equally competent.

That's not the issue. The issue really is that with the stroke of pen on check, a 500-hour pilot or whoever can cut in line ahead of, perhaps, the more experienced, but, for sure, someone who cannot or will not pay. Therein lies the evil of P-F-T.

What made P-F-T especially noxious to me was I met every qualification on paper for an FO job with the commuters. I had interviews with non-P-F-T commuters as a street applicant, but wasn't hired. But I could have bought my way in via P-F-T. That was an insult in every way. It was an insult to the effort I put in to build my quals, an insult to my ethics and, last but not least, an insult to my intelligence. I never heard of any business where you pay money to the employer as a hiring condition, for any reason.

I think the unions should not let these PFT's join. Since essentially they are degrading our profession. Hopefully as time moves on there will be enough of us to fight the PFT's. The old timers don't really understand it yet since it is relatively new.

No, P-F-T is not so new anymore. It's been around since at least 1990 in one form or another. That's about the time when I first heard of it.

More "old timers" than you think understand P-F-T. Just search the subject on the board. But, if you really mean veteran major airline pilots, many of them do not understand the implications of P-F-T. That is because many of them are in their own little 121 turbojet world and know little of what goes on outside of it. Someone might ask them about you-know-where in South Florida as a way to obtain 121 time. They'll hear "121 time" and advise someone to go for it without recognizing or realizing the long-term ramifications and deleterious aspects of P-F-T.

It would be nice if the unions could stop P-F-T. But it will never happen. No matter how much education is provided about the harm of P-F-T, there will always be people who try to short-cut the process. Hopefully, they will be caught and screened out by pilot boards at interviews.

 

[stillaboo2]

Most bridge programs are not PFT (see bobbysamd's 2 prong test for what is and isn't PFT).

These kids get there parents to part with 50 grand or more . . . So they can get hired with 500 hours.

Most grads of my program (a 'bridge program' that you would ignorantly call PFT) paid their own way through loans or savings, not from Daddy's bank account.

Essentially they are telling me and everyone else like me that the PFT's at 500 hours are just as experienced and competent as us with 2000 hours.

Sounds to me like you are NOT currently a ALPA member here (and by the way, TT by itself doesn't dictate the qualifications of a pilot - see the military for an example. This is a whole 'nother discusssion for a different thread, but suffice it to say there isn't yet a consensus on the total time vs. quality of time debate other than the ideal is lots of quality time)

I think the unions should not let these PFT's join. Since essentially they are degrading our profession.

Now it sounds like you are a member. I'm confused, but honestly, it really doesn't matter. Many of the largest regional airlines in the country were PFT in the 90's, so the idea that 'the union' is letting these guys slip through is a misnomer - these guys ARE the union, about 35% of the regional ranks, by my guess. It's sortta' like scabs - are all Eastern pilots who crossed scabs, or just the ones that crossed in the 1st weeks? What about all the senior Continetal guys?

I am 90% sure that the airlines get a kickback from the flight schools for hiring these wonder boys and girls.

Some, such as Mesa and Comair, own the academy they hire grads from. If the flightschool makes a profit, then I guess that's a kickback in some sense. I'd want to see more evidence that other schools (not wholly owned by an airline) are paying $ to the airlines that hire their former students b/f I jumped on your bandwagon.

There are only 2 genuine PFT programs that I know of - PACE and Gulfstream. There are still airlines that are PFT - Colgan, for instance. It's hard to brand any pilot PFT though just by the company he/she works for though. Most Colgan guys were hired b/f it was PFT - though now it is. Many Gulfstream pilots didn't go through the Gulfstream program, whereas many Pinnacle FO's now are. Most senior guys at ASA and ACA are PFT (I believe, correct me if they were never PFT in the 90's), but these same pilots are praised on this board, while Mesa pilots (Mesa has never been PFT) are criticized for 'lowering the bar' here.

The problem with MPD, PACE, etc. is that you are essentially paying for an interview (on top of training).

No. PACE you are paying for the interview. At MPD, you are no more paying for the interview than any pilot who paid for their ratings (aka, every civilain pilot). There is no difference b/t Mesa's MPD training and any other pilot training except MPD offers an interview at the end, where as Joe's part 61 school doesn't. The ratings are the same FAA ratings, and they are generic to any FAA flying, not Mesa in particular. The standard might be higher though. Regardless, Mesa and Comair have found that grads of their programs have the skills required to fly 121 aircraft at their airlines. Actions speak louder than words, and quality training from the likes of Flight Safety, Embry Riddle, UND, MPD, Comair, etc can often help a pilot progress to a skill level not normally achieved until more hours have been logged. These pilots rarely wash out of 121 training and have excellent safety records compared with the general population - the results speak for themselves.

As many will tell you, the interview is basically equivalent to receiving a job offer, unless you do something stupid. So really, the student is paying for a job. The result? A pilot with low hours who will work for a low wage at an airline.

I would be interested to see the # of CFI's that turn down flying as a career b/c the airlines are just begging to hire the pilot but they find that the wage is too low. The reality is most piston pilots who aspire to fly professionally will agree to fly for the low wages of a regional FO, regardless of their TT.

 

[jergar999]

What's orange.....

and looks good on a Pay for Trainer??
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FIRE!!

Happy New Year from MST.

 

[secks]

There is no difference b/t Mesa's MPD training and any other pilot training except MPD offers an interview at the end, where as Joe's part 61 school doesn't.ot Mesa in particular.

And how is this not paying for an interview? It's just like PACE, you get some training, then an interview. The only difference is that the MPD training begins with newbie pilots. In both situations, you're paying for an interview. In fact, it's even more blatant with MPD, because they will hire/interview a pilot with 300 hours. Talk about buying a job!

I would be interested to see the # of CFI's that turn down flying as a career b/c the airlines are just begging to hire the pilot but they find that the wage is too low. The reality is most piston pilots who aspire to fly professionally will agree to fly for the low wages of a regional FO, regardless of their TT.

The point is that Mesa has the MPD grads by the balls, since they will cling to that job for dear life until they rack up competitive TT.

 

[avbug]

The old timers don't really understand it yet since it is relatively new.

No, it's not. And yes, those of us who have been in the business for a while do understand it. It's a crock, always has been. It's been going for eons, and will for a long time to come.

More aggravating than the programs themselves is talking about it like it's something newsworthy. It's garbage, we all know it's garbage, and yodeling about it is nothing more than soloing before the choir. Even those "old timers" who have had more than one tour with the group...

 

[FN FAL]

Let them eat cake

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD v. P-F-T

I worked at Mesa Airlines Pilot Development for a time ten years ago. It is a flight school. It is not P-F-T because it fails the two-prong test:

(1) money must exchange hands between applicant and employer as a condition of employment to defray company training expenses.

You are not being hired for a job when you enroll at MAPD. You are enrolling for flight training.

(2) the training obtained is specific only to that company and does not lead to a certificate, rating or operating privilege that can be marketed elsewhere.

On this prong alone, MAPD fails the P-F-T analysis. You earn your FAA Commercial-Instrument-Multi, good anywhere such airman certificates are recognized, which is at least any place in the U.S. Yes, MAPD flight training is 100% slanted toward Mesa Airlines line procedures.

It is true the Mesa interview is the carrot on the stick at the end. But it's a difficult and potentially elusive carrot. Mesa students work hard for it. Not only are they taking 141 flight training, they are going to college at least part-time. It is also true that the interview is virtually guaranteed. "Virtually" is the operative word. Notwithstanding the 3.0 flight course GPA requirement, the interview is yours to lose, but I had one student who lost his because of his attitude. And then, once you're hired, you're on your own. There are MAPD grads who wash out of training. If you want to take the P-F-T analysis a step further, those who fail get no refunds or pro-rated refunds on their supposed "P-F-T" training.

MAPD may be a lot of things, but it is not P-F-T.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD-Mesa as pragmatism

The point is that Mesa has the MPD grads by the balls, since they will cling to that job for dear life until they rack up competitive TT.

No one says you have to stay there forever. As a practical matter, the MAPD-Mesa combo gets the job done. Read EternalOptomist's comments on this thread. You have to scroll down a ways to find them.

 

[huncowboy]

I started this thread to vent a little.

I think these stupid bridge programs are PFT in disguise. These kids get there parents to part with 50 grand or more so they can go to DCA, or wherever ( I don't know them all). So they can get hired with 500 hours.

So now CFIing is PFT also. Great. Moron get your facts straight!

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

man, what happened to good flame fests, like the jesus thread
or the foreign labor one?

and btw, stroomwell, you laid your cards down too soon, ya gotta let the pot simmer a little, and stir it periodically, not just come out with your guns blazin

oh, well

 

[Flying Illini]

In fact, it's even more blatant with MPD, because they will hire/interview a pilot with 300 hours. Talk about buying a job!

I'm not trying to fan the flames here but don't some of the overseas carriers send their pilots to FSI to recieve all of their training and then they hire them into the right seat with only 300 or so hours?

Quantity v. Quality will always be the question and I think that quantity will always rule, unfortunately.
It seems unfair that someone who tows banners for two summers and racks up 2,000 to 2,500 hours of flight time (day, VFR...the same hour, thousands of times) can look more qualified than someone who spent 500 to 1,000 hours flying night cargo or even flight instructing.

As for favoritism:
Is it also favoritism if you take the initiative to go get an internship (paid, non-flying) at a company and then you happen to get hired on with that company even though you are below the competitive times they have listed? I don't think so because you showed MORE initiative than someone with more TT. That company already knows you and they already know how dedicated you are and if you would make a good employee. Do they take a risk on the higher time guy whom they don't know but presumably knows his stuff, or do they hire the lower time guy whom they know is a solid employee and who knows his stuff?

As for PFT/J, It's BS. It hurts the industry as a whole. I went and did the Florida tour of flight schools after I graduated b/c I didn't want to instruct for 1,500 hours. I was very green and figured that those schools had something to offer, even if it did cost alot. I looked at FSI, PanAm, Comair I didn't qualify for (I already had all my ratings), and Gulfstream Academy. This is why PFT will never go away: Gulfstream had a program that sounded pretty good! Luckily I did some serious research BEFORE I went on these tours and learned how much of a slimeball operation Gulfstream is. I still kept my appointment and went to the place just to see how they presented themselves and to get an answer to one question that was burning in my mind. The question was: "How do you respond to people who say this program is PFT?" I got a 5 minute long answer that wasn't an answer at all...I was given the run around. At no time was my question answered. My Dad and brother (we turned this FL tour into a guys only vacation) who were with me were even shocked by how slimy GA's operations were (I hadn't told them about their reputation but did describe PFT to them before we had the tour). Long story short, we came out of there FEELING dirty.

The point is that as long as there are impressionable low-timers out there looking for another avenue to getting an airline job, PFT won't go away. If everyone did the amount of research that I did before looking at programs such as GA, they would turn away in disgust as I did.

I think I did more rambling than anything in this post and I apologize, I just had to get it off my chest.

 

[bobbysamd]

FSI contract training

I'm not trying to fan the flames here but don't some of the overseas carriers send their pilots to FSI to recieve all of their training and then they hire them into the right seat with only 300 or so hours?

You have only part of the story.

Contract training is a big part of FSI's business. The folks whom the foreign airlines send to FSI are already employees of the airlines. Their airlines pay them and/or they receive per diem from their airlines. The airlines are paying for their housing, and paying for their training. After they finish training for their Commercial-Instrument-Multi, they generally receive advanced training from the companies on their equipment and sims.

It is less expensive for foreign carriers to send their trainees to FSI. Fuel here is less expensive. Also, Florida wx is generally good all year, so there are fewer training delays. Finally, airspace here is less restrictive than in Europe. All in all, it's efficient for foreign airlines to send pilots to the U.S. for primary training.

 

[Flying Illini]

Thanks for clearing that up Bobbysamd. I knew there had to be more to it than just what I had posted.

 

[shroomwell]

AS for MAPD, if I remember correctly I looked into insturcting at MAPD a year or two ago. One thing that disgusted me was that they said you could get an interview with Mesa after working there for a period of time. I couldn't understand how you can instruct the students who get an interview with 300 hours, but as their instructor your not qualified to get an interview with Mesa.

That is why I call it PFT in disguise!

Also foreign airlines hire low timers to sit right seat, but the difference is they hire them with no time and pay for their entire training and pay them while their doing it. Thats just the nature of those markets. It happens that here in the U.S. it is very competitive so airlines don't have to completely train pilots. Thats why PFT has developed.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD hiring opportunities for instructors

AS for MAPD, if I remember correctly I looked into insturcting at MAPD a year or two ago. One thing that disgusted me was that they said you could get an interview with Mesa after working there for a period of time. I couldn't understand how you can instruct the students who get an interview with 300 hours, but as their instructor your not qualified to get an interview with Mesa.

That is why I call it PFT in disguise!

Having instructed at MAPD several years ago, I don't understand how you can call it P-F-T in disguise. For one thing, MAPD instructor hiring mins are surprisingly low - something like 500 hours total and 100 dual given (I had substantially higher time when I was hired, not much less than the totals you see at the left, but other instructors were hired at far lower time.). After you reach Mesa hiring mins of 1000 total-100 multi you have the chance to interview. Compare that with street hires, who need far higher times to be interviewed. All the while, you are a Mesa Airlines employee (actually, San Juan Pilot Training with your check coming from Four Corners Aviation) and are paid. You also have pass privileges. Your comments about MAPD instructing being P-F-T in disguise are absurd.

And so are your comments about foreign airline pilot training. Foreign airlines operate under a different system. Some are government operated. That notwithstanding, as I wrote above, foreign airlines hire individuals they feel have potential and train them at their own expense. Their training is very structured and intense, more so than even Part 141 or MAPD. And they are not turned loose in 737s, etc. at 300 hours. Try 500 hours or more.

 

[350DRIVER]

The MAPD program is completely different, you are given absolutely nothing at all but the chance for an interview if you do not wash out of the program. You will earn every single thing if you choose to go this route. The problem is the "smucks" that go to Gulfstream and "rent" a seat out for 250 hours just to earn the title "whore". The sad thing is that a select very few of the regionals will pick them up and put them in the right seat of a RJ.
As for the Mesa grads being stuck there forever, that is comical considering many of them are at America West now and others ........

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