Pension plan question.

[kennedy8]

Looks like NWAC and CAL are funding their pensions with the labor equity of XJT and Pinnacle pilots.
The way I see it, we get to fund their needs in retirement but the regional pilots get food stamps after 60.
Comments?

 

[UPSer]

Negotiate a pension plan in your next contract.

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

Airways Question

Once USAirways pays off its debt and is heathy again, will the pensions of those who were forced to take drastic cuts be restored?

Of all the rotten things that have happened to all of us since 9/11, I think the most disgraceful is the company (Airways in this case) cutting the pensions of those who worked hard their whole careers, and who planned on having a certain level of income to live on.

Hopefully the powers that be in the mainline USAir union will see fit to insist that the pensions of these guys are restored to their proper levels when the pendulum swings back the pilot's way which it invariably (someday....) will!

 

[CitationLover]

fmr_rgnl_plt it was the pbgc that cut benefits not usairways. usairways have replaced some of the benefits and since they emerged im sure alpa will try to restore these benefits.

fyi, alpa probably cares likedity squat about pensions. retirees don't pay dues, active pilots due. this is why union plans are typically weak.

 

[kennedy8]

You all have been had by management.

 

[RUhiring?]

fmr_rgnl_plt it was the pbgc that cut benefits not usairways. usairways have replaced some of the benefits and since they emerged im sure alpa will try to restore these benefits.

fyi, alpa probably cares likedity squat about pensions. retirees don't pay dues, active pilots due. this is why union plans are typically weak.

This is 100% completely false. It was U management that didn't just cut benefits, they TERMINATED the plan. They replaced it with one that requires 30 years to even come close to what it was. The problem is, nobody on the seniority list has 30 years left. There are guys now who will get around $1300/month when they retire. All because they are close to 60. So they are left with what the PBGC pays out. The PBGC pays a max of around $1300/month if you retire at age 60 and around $2700/month if you retire at age 70 (or so). Unfortunately, we all know when a pilot MUST retire (121 ops).

There is a resolution before congress that will allow for funding of these plans over a much longer period of time. If this becomes law, then the U pension will be restored. It's a longshot, but worth contacting your representatives over. It carries implications for everyone, not just US Airways.

 

[vc10]

And yet, getting a pension plan is often one of ALPA's top goals because it offers pilots "certainty" about their retirement benefits.

401(k)s offer no such "certainty". You won't know what your retirement benefits are because it's up to you to invest it wisely. But any money you're given in company matching is yours, yours, yours and not subject to what may happen in bankruptcy.

 

[CitationLover]

ruhiring you're wrong. you just said the pbgc CUT the benefits not USAirways (which is what you said i was wrong about).

USAirways cannot (repeat cannot) cut benefits, it is against the law (IRC Section 401/411/414). USAirways terminated the plan because they could no longer afford the pension payments and would rather have used the money for other debt items (thats what bankruptcy is ruhiring). would you have rather them defaulted on the pension and have even lower benefits? i agree that mgmt uses the money sometimes unscrupulously (like unfunded mgmt retirement plans), which is why i left the pension business.

fyi, if the plan is so underfunded the pbgc can FORCE the plan terminated (see TWA).

it is funny how labor now wants to EXTEND pension payments, normally it is the exact opposite. people should NOT rely on employee retirement plans as their ONLY source of retirement income.

vc10, the biggest reason that 401k's are getting so popular with businesses is that they replace a variable cost structure (old defined benefit plans, ie pensions) with a fixed one. ie they know that the 401k match will be 3% of payroll, etc. unfortunately most people do not manage money properly and end up with less money than they would have gotten with a traditional pension.

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

Pension Fairness

Citation,

When you say, "people shouldn't rely on pension plans", maybe today people should be cynical and realize the company they work for may well screw them over by declaring Ch. 11 and dumping their plan since it is inconvenient to live up to their commitments........., but for people who retired 15 to 20 years ago, before this dispicable trend started, can't be faulted for not being able to read the tea leaves....

Second, I think the whole notion of Ch. 11 is in essence corporate welfare plain and simple. The CEO and board of directors can screw over the company's employees, investors, and people who have loaned them money, then once they get their company turned around pat each other on the back and give one another raises!

Lastly, I think when a company agrees to give an employee a pension, it is a binding contract, ergo, as you essentially said they can't simply cancel a pension on a whim.

Because of this I think a company should HAVE TO LIQUIDATE ASSETS, (IE. AIRPLANES) IN THIS INSTANCE, BEFORE THEY SCREW OVER THEIR FORMER EMPLOYEES.

And shame on any union that sells out its retired members to help themselves, especially when those former members no longer have a right to vote on something that significantly impacts them.

And no, I have not been affected by this personally, but I can't think of a more unfair situation that I've encountered in this bussiness.

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

An expection....

Perhaps liquidating assets if they can't pay their retiree, is a bit extreme and counter-productive, but any cut in benefits should be temporary.

Once a company comes out of Ch. 11 their benefits should be restored in full, and they should receive "back pay" with interest to compensate for what they gave up. Especially, before any management types receive bonuses!

 

[General Lee]

A lot of the pension shortfalls are due to the low stock price. Look at UAL---their stock price is near .98 cents----not even remotely close to their all time high. As stock prices go up, the pension shortfalls get smaller. But, if you are at an airline, like UAL, that has the stock price staying low, it is even harder to fund it. That is why UAL might try to stop funding it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CitationLover]

generallee,

generally pension funds are 60% stocks, 40% bonds so your statement is true to a point. generally the older the population is the more a shift to bonds is seen.

pension funds generally are distributed over a variety of funds and investments (diversity is a principle of investment).


fmr_rgnl_plt if a company is bankrupt then why should the ees be entitled to the assets? what about the other creditors of the company? they got screwed too.

 

[RUhiring?]

ruhiring you're wrong. you just said the pbgc CUT the benefits not USAirways (which is what you said i was wrong about).

]

What? Where did I say that the PBGC cut benefits?

USAirways cannot (repeat cannot) cut benefits, it is against the law (IRC Section 401/411/414). USAirways terminated the plan

Which is exactly what I said!

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

Fairness....

Citation,

Thanks for giving me a chance to expalin why retirees are more deserving of being compensated than other debtors.

Its like the committment a man makes to his lady when he gets married, its a higher level of responsibility than say what a man has toward his credit card company for instance....... If you have five bucks and your credit card bill is due and your wife is hungry...... your gonna feed your wife!


Its almost analogous to a country not taking care of its veterans. These people gave their blood, sweat, and tears to their company, put in many years of service and were promised a certain level of compensation. I believe that is a sacred trust.

 

[CitationLover]

Its almost analogous to a country not taking care of its veterans. These people gave their blood, sweat, and tears to their company, put in many years of service and were promised a certain level of compensation. I believe that is a sacred trust.

Funny you mentioned this. I heard on the radio that our veterans of Iraq have to pay $8.10/day for food when they were in a hospital recovering from wounds in Iraq. That is shameless!!! Evidently, it is a law from 1981. Congress should have a term limit of 1 term.