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Part 121 / 135 Normal procedures checklists

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Spooky 2

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Posts
717
Doing a little survey here and would like to hear from those that are operating within Part 121/135 community as to how they are formatting their Normal Procedures checklists.

Are you using all Upper Case lettering, on the challenge and response or a combination of both Upper Case and Lower Case. Bold print or regular font and last what is the font style.

Example:

LANDING GEAR DOWN
or
Landing Gear Down

As you can probably tell from the questions asked, we have a small debate going on here regarding new checklist design and contruction. Actually NASA has some material that gives guidance, but then NASA also says you shouldn't fly when your tired and we all know how well that rule is followed.
 
I doubt it. It's safer to have your head up and be paying attention than buried in a checklist. I know it's different with 2 pilots, but by myself I use flows.

Our checklist uses upper and lower case letters. No challenge and response single pilot though.
 
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I didn't say that checklist where totally unnecessary. They do have their place, but IMO it's not in the single pilot environment. Single pilot A/C are inherently simple and flows work much more effectively. I could post alot more accidents where pilots did use the checklist and still crashed. What about the crew that flew a DC-10 into the ground because they where preoccupied with a gear problem and running checklist, or more recently the Comair at LEX, they used a checklist too though not the main cause I'll bet it contributed some.
 
I didn't say that checklist where totally unnecessary. They do have their place, but IMO it's not in the single pilot environment. Single pilot A/C are inherently simple and flows work much more effectively. I could post alot more accidents where pilots did use the checklist and still crashed. What about the crew that flew a DC-10 into the ground because they where preoccupied with a gear problem and running checklist, or more recently the Comair at LEX, they used a checklist too though not the main cause I'll bet it contributed some.

First of all I asked for Part 121/135 replies not some single pilot operation and since your clueless about the above, do us all a favor and butt out. Nothing like a low time know it all to flavor the conversation.
 
My POI handed me a publication called "Human Performance Considerations in the Use and Design of Aircraft Checklists" a few years back...still available on the FAA's web site (I tried posting a link, but it didn't work...you can google the title, though), but the last guy that made us do checklists wanted something different.
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Fly safe!

David

try cutting and pasting this link...it's an MS Word document...

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs200/branches/afs210/training_aids/media/checklist.doc[/SIZE]
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First of all I asked for Part 121/135 replies not some single pilot operation and since your clueless about the above, do us all a favor and butt out. Nothing like a low time know it all to flavor the conversation.

I fly 135! :uzi: I'm out there every day flying in lousy weather just like the rest of us. I fly a 2 crew A/C also and in there I use a challenge and response check list and it works well in that situation. But when your hand flying an approach to some nowhere airport at night in the soup by yourself, the last thing you need to be doing is burying your head up a checklist. That's a good way to get killed! I may not have 10,000hrs in a AirBoing what ever, but I've been flying long enough to know what works and what doesn't. I don't know why you assume I'm clueless about the above since I posted that our checklist do use a combination of upper and lower case letters. It's much easier to read that way since that's the way you read most of the time, AS OPPOSED TO ALL CAPITAL LETTERS WHICH AREN"T AS EASY TO READ, SINCE MOST OF USE DON'T GENERALLY READ OR WRITE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS!

BTW my CP and Do have been flying this was for about 60 years and 50 some odd thousand hours combined and they've not killed them selves yet. So get off your high time horse!:smash:
 
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I fly 135! :uzi: I'm out there every day flying in lousy weather just like the rest of us. I fly a 2 crew A/C also and in there I use a challenge and response check list and it works well in that situation. But when your hand flying an approach to some nowhere airport at night in the soup by yourself, the last thing you need to be doing is burying your head up a checklist. That's a good way to get killed! I may not have 10,000hrs in a AirBoing what ever, but I've been flying long enough to know what works and what doesn't. I don't know why you assume I'm clueless about the above since I posted that our checklist do use a combination of upper and lower case letters. It's much easier to read that way since that's the way you read most of the time, AS OPPOSED TO ALL CAPITAL LETTERS WHICH AREN"T AS EASY TO READ, SINCE MOST OF USE DON'T GENERALLY READ OR WRITE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS!

BTW my CP and Do have been flying this was for about 60 years and 50 some odd thousand hours combined and they've not killed them selves yet. So get off your high time horse!:smash:

After all these posts you finally add something to the conversation regarding the checklist composition. Maybe you aren't as dumb as you sounded in your first post.
 
just to toss a little more fuel on the fire, here's an interesting article on the subject. I don't subscibe to the "more flight hours makes your opinion correct" fallacy, but for those of you who do, the author has 35K + hours in various large aircraft including the 747 and G-IV, so by your own reasoning, if you disagree with him, you're wrong, (unless you have even more time)
 
I doubt it. It's safer to have your head up and be paying attention than buried in a checklist. I know it's different with 2 pilots, but by myself I use flows.
You're kicking against the pricks on that one (and I don't mean that literally)...the free and the captive world both believe from bloody years of experience that checklists are not only darn good idea, but crucial to your future health.

My perspective and practice is that flows apply in all phases of operation, when supported with a checklist. I take my checklist very seriously. In the past few years, a couple of experiences drove that home to me. One occured a few several years ago when I took a contract flight in a King Air 200 one night for an ambulance company. I'd made night approaches into this remote, uncontrolled field on a number of occasions, and flew the standard VOR approach for terrain and self-preservation. I had always dropped the gear at the VOR, which served as the FAF for the approach. For some reason I did not. I relied on my flows, and somewhere in there either in the turbulence or something else, got my attention diverted somewhere other than the crucial task of flying the airplane. I found myself on final and caught the gear...far later than I should have because I didn't execute the checklist at the time I should have. I normally used it religiously, and I can't tell you why I failed to do it then...but it could have been very serious for me, my crew that night, and for the patient who was waiting for us.

The second occurance was this last summer, on a day when I was doing a lot of fast turnarounds. That particular aircraft often involved locking the controls as we were rolling out or clearing the runway, as a matter of habit. We were very flow oriented in the airplane; it was a single seat single pilot cockpit with a lot going on, low level hot and heavy flight in moderate to severe turbulence, and it was a very unstable airplane. I'd attended to that by ensuring the checklist was as concise as possible and on my kneeboard in jepp protectors where I could review it hands-off. I hot-loaded, made the short taxi to the runway, lined up, called my time, and rolled.

The tail didn't get light, so I pushed, and pushed, and nothing happened. I glanced down and noted that the control lock was neatly in place, preserving the very large control surfaces from wind damage on the ground just as they were intended to do, and preventing me from using them as they were not...an upward swipe with my fist knocked it free, otherwise it would have been an abort in a situation that wasn't really abortable for a number of reasons. Sheer stupidity. Something like the tenth or twelth of eighteen takeoffs that day, a long day...I ran into some folks a month later who had whitnessed a pilot takeoff in that condition in the same type aircraft a year before...he got to nearly 300' before pitching over and down into the ground at a steep angle, and from what I understand, a fireball.

Checklists are there for a reason. Use them. The military believes this. Airlines believe this. All flight training departmets believe this. Corporate departments know this. Professional pilots live and breath it. I've practiced it in every kind of flying I've done, which has been a fairly diverse lot...and the times I haven't, such as outlined here, it's bitten me (or nearly so). Don't reinvent the wheel...don't think you know more than the rest of the flying world and thus go your own way. You don't. It's a mistake, it's a bad habit, and it will kill you.

When I'm single pilot, I read the checklist out loud, the whole thing, after my flows, and I do it verbally with a full challenge and response...you fight how you train, and I train to do it the same weather I'm alone or in a crewed cockpit...and that consistency is a good thing. You do as you will, but I don't think you'll find a credible source out there that will back your idea of using flows instead of checklists, nor your justification that this is okay because it's single pilot. It's not okay. It's dangerous.

You're dangerous, iceman (had to throw that in there. Sorry. It just came out). (Really).

As far as checklists go, I don't think it's too critical either way with capitol lettering. I like to see items clearly printed so they're not mixed or mistaken, with phases of the checklist separated and clearly labled. I like to see the checklists organized into the same flow pattern that's used before, during, or after the checklist to unify the actions. A good, easily useable checklist can contribute a whole lot to safety, but one that's hard to follow is less likely to be used, and as a result throws the pilot or crew into the same boat as the fellow above who doesn't like to use his checklist. Not good.

So long as I'm on the box (so to speak), I've seen a real potential for skipping items because line items on the checklist appear the same. Making the lines a little unique so they can be visually identified and tracked, such as making alternating items down the list bold, or with a highlighted background sometimes helps. A lot of ways can be found to do this...just something that give the eye structure as it goes down the list and doesn't contribute to getting items skipped. It's a good support to keeping one's finger on the item being done on the checklist.

As you can probably tell from the questions asked, we have a small debate going on here regarding new checklist design and contruction. Actually NASA has some material that gives guidance, but then NASA also says you shouldn't fly when your tired and we all know how well that rule is followed.

Ah, not sure what your point is there...but NASA IS RIGHT!!! (as is every other aviation safety organization in the world which doles out the same counsel...and the FAA that enforces it).
 
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just to toss a little more fuel on the fire, here's an interesting article on the subject. I don't subscibe to the "more flight hours makes your opinion correct" fallacy, but for those of you who do, the author has 35K + hours in various large aircraft including the 747 and G-IV, so by your own reasoning, if you disagree with him, you're wrong, (unless you have even more time)

I don't see anything here that would lead me to the article. Thanks in advance as it's nice to get something other than lip on the site.
 
BTW my CP and Do have been flying this was for about 60 years and 50 some odd thousand hours combined and they've not killed them selves yet. So get off your high time horse!:smash:
Ah...the old "they've been doing it for years, and they ain't dead yet, so it must be good" theory...applies to checklists, flying Cherokees into icing, bootlegged GPS approaches, all kinds of neat stuff :)

Fly safe!

David
 
Spooky,

I sent someone a copy of our checklists about a year back, not sure if it was you or not...Anywho....When I revised our checklists for the LR60 and CL601, I followed the same format that we used at my former airline. The challenges were written normally and the response was writen in boldface caps.
ex) Cabin Signs..........ON

Items that require both a CA and FO response were placed in a shaded box.

Hope this helps. PM me if you have more questions or want a copy
 
Spooky,

I sent someone a copy of our checklists about a year back, not sure if it was you or not...Anywho....When I revised our checklists for the LR60 and CL601, I followed the same format that we used at my former airline. The challenges were written normally and the response was writen in boldface caps.
ex) Cabin Signs..........ON

Items that require both a CA and FO response were placed in a shaded box.

Hope this helps. PM me if you have more questions or want a copy

Thanks Mercury. Finally got it sorted out and into print. Messing with checklist formatting is akin to a sex change sometimes.
 

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