Ops Spec C77

[soarby007]

Under operations specification C77, a turbojet must always file an IFR flight plan, but there are also provisions for terminal VFR. Here's the situation.

Can I fly to T77, Presidio, Tx, when you can see from Oklahoma City to Mexico City, cancel IFR and proceed VFR in the terminal area?
This airport has no weather reporting, no FBO,no instrument approach, and you lose radar contact at 13,000'msl.

Also, under C77, if you fly at night to an uncontrolled field and the center loses radar contact at 5,000' msl, can you legally go VFR in the terminal area if there is no one to provide traffic advisories? This comes under the 'no radio facility' part of C77.

 

[gern_blanston]

Been long time since I flew 135 in the ol' Westwind, but you can't file IFR to an airport without weather reporting, can you? And we were required to establish communications with the ground at night. I remember that one because we regularly had to pay a callout fee to the FBO operator at on airport that we flew into to provide us with a guy to man the radio in the middle of the night. Our ops specs allowed us to cancel within 10 miles of the arrival airport if we had it in sight, I believe. They're all a little different. Sounds like some good questions for your POI.

 

[soarby007]

Well it says you can't conduct an instrument approach without weather at the airport. Under C77 it looks like you can proceed under an instrument flight plan and under section b..terminal VFR cancel the flight plan? Doesn't say how far out, etc. I think you are right about the radio.

 

[gern_blanston]

Yeah, depends on how feisty your POI is. Ours claimed that since you can't launch IFR without the weather being above minimums (or forecast) at the destination, you can't launch IFR without weather reporting. He was a bit uptight.
There's still a lot of variance from FSDO to FSDO and POI to POI.
One of our POI's in my piston charter days encouraged us to file IFR VFR-On-Top in the single-engine planes on clear days as a sort of guaranteed flight following. Worked great until we switched POI's. The new one freaked out when our chief pilot told him about that, because, of course, there was no IFR pax flying allowed in singles.

 

[Rick1128]

Been long time since I flew 135 in the ol' Westwind, but you can't file IFR to an airport without weather reporting, can you? And we were required to establish communications with the ground at night. I remember that one because we regularly had to pay a callout fee to the FBO operator at on airport that we flew into to provide us with a guy to man the radio in the middle of the night. Our ops specs allowed us to cancel within 10 miles of the arrival airport if we had it in sight, I believe. They're all a little different. Sounds like some good questions for your POI.

There was a regulation change in Nov 03 that now allows "Eligible On Demand' Operators to fly into airports without weather reporting. There are requirements, like two pilots, ATP for turbine PICs minimum flight time requirements for both pilots and time in type requirements. Plus the infamous OpSpecs.

As for distance, without looking at the Opspecs, I seem to remembe a distance mentioned in them. There is no requirement that I have found in either the FAR's or Order 8400.10 that requires Pt 135 turbojets to always fly IFR. I doesn't make much sense to do otherwise except for some very short trips.

 

[soarby007]

Ops spec C64 and C77 both state that turbojets must always file IFR. C64 refers to C77 for the exceptions in the terminal area. It refers to arriving IFR, VFR and cancelling flight plans and gives the requirements. Yeah we are not eligible on demand and are considering that.

 

[CitationCapt]

T77

Under operations specification C77, a turbojet must always file an IFR flight plan, but there are also provisions for terminal VFR. Here's the situation.

Can I fly to T77, Presidio, Tx, when you can see from Oklahoma City to Mexico City, cancel IFR and proceed VFR in the terminal area?
This airport has no weather reporting, no FBO,no instrument approach, and you lose radar contact at 13,000'msl.

Also, under C77, if you fly at night to an uncontrolled field and the center loses radar contact at 5,000' msl, can you legally go VFR in the terminal area if there is no one to provide traffic advisories? This comes under the 'no radio facility' part of C77.

If you are flying a 135 trip, try filing a victor airway that crosses over or near the airport (in this case T77) to a destination nearby that has weather reporting. Ask ATC to clear you down to the MEA or MVA and take a look at T77. Stay with ATC, do not cancel, and if you can determine that you can make a visual approach and land, they will ask you to report your cancellation and downtime on their frequency if you can reach them, or through FSS frequency (or call FSS on the ground) to cancel. Make sure you depart T77 in VFR conditions and pickup your IFR clearance in VFR conditions below FL180 within 50 nm of T77.

CC

 

[Packers]

I had this discussion with AFS-1 in Washington DC. His take on it was that you can launch on a 135 trip so long as the current or forecast weather was above minimums. For airports without weather reporting, an Area Forecast is forecast weather. He said you can file to a fix (ndb, intersection, ect.) at the airport and go there. If you don't have the airport in sight, continue on to the alternate.

As for advisories. Doesn't CTAF stand for Common Traffic Advisory Frequency? The opinion I received from Washington and our FSDO was that we are able to receive advisories on that freq and if other traffic is in the area we will be able to resolve any conflicts.

The Eligible On Demand rules really helped out in this respect.

It's worth what you paid for it.

 

[soarby007]

How do I get this information from AFS-1? I agree with you totally. As far as the CTAF, I think that works, except the specs seem to indicate that someone has to give you airport status and advisories, but other traffic on the same frequency probably solves that.

Thanks for the info.