NWA small jet details, todays Aviation Daily

[fieldinsight]

Looks like the regionals will have to own any 51-76 seaters....

http://www.aviationdaily.com/avnow/news/channel_aviationdaily_story.jsp?id=news/NWAA03086.xml

"Northwest won tentative approval from its pilots' union to fly at least 90 aircraft with 76 seats at a reduced pay scale, of which 45 could be operated by a wholly owned subsidiary, a move management desperately wanted to stay competitive with other airlines.

The Air Line Pilots Association unit yesterday released details of the small-jet agreement to its members, including the proposed pay scales for planes ranging in size from 76 to more than 100 seats, including the Embraer 195. As part of the deal, Northwest feeder airlines could fly a maximum of 55 aircraft with 51-76 seats as long as the planes were not owned, leased financed or controlled by Northwest. The 55-plane limit includes the existing 35 Avro RJs flown by Mesaba, which will likely be replaced if the agreement is ratified.

Northwest can go higher than 55 planes on a one-for-one ratio if management adds a 77- to 110-seat aircraft to the mainline fleet.
Management agreed that furloughed Northwest pilots are entitled to five "new hire" jobs at the feeder carrier to fly the new planes, but the feeder carrier's furloughed pilots have the first right to any jobs at their airline. The furloughed Northwest pilots hired at the feeder carrier would work under the terms of that carrier's pilot contract.

Also in the agreement, Northwest would be allowed to form a separate wholly owned subsidiary or affiliate to fly 76-seat aircraft, previously called Newco. There is a limit of 90 planes, which includes the 55 aircraft for the feeder carrier flying. The airline could add more planes of the same size to Newco, but only if it also adds an equal number of 77- to 110-seat aircraft to mainline service. Furloughed Northwest pilots would have first rights to jobs at the subsidiary but on separate seniority list."

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Looks like Republic may have the inside track for 51-76 seat flying, because they have the 170's on order. I doubt XJ or 9E can raise the money to acquire the needed aircraft.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

The part of the deal they are referencing is just a snippet of the entire TA... When taken in the context of the TA, this part appears quite a bit different... IMHO anyways...

With regards to Republic... There is no way that NW wants to play with BB again... They learned their lesson from the days when he was running Mesaba. I don't think you'll find many carriers that'll rollover and play dead like 9E and XJ do for mother NW...

 

[DoinTime]

Looks like Republic may have the inside track for 51-76 seat flying, because they have the 170's on order.

Are you telling me that Republic has EMB 170s on order without a prior commitment on who they are going into service for?

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

Are you telling me that Republic has EMB 170s on order without a prior commitment on who they are going into service for?

Delta

 

[Indy319FA]

There is no way that NW wants to play with BB again

Actually I heard it was the other way around. Anyway it all revolves around the almighty dollar, and you can bet NW will put the aircraft where it will make them the most money. A big part of this will be who can get the best financing terms on the aircraft, and right now that looks to be Republic.

 

[SF340Guy]

Are you telling me that Republic has EMB 170s on order without a prior commitment on who they are going into service for?

Yes we do. According to the financials there are 35 options and 4 firm. BB is very smart. If anyone wants to get into the E170 market to compete then they have to wait, because RJET gets first delivery options. That is a very good advantage to have when you are submitting an RFP.

 

[Flying Ninja]

Is that 55 aircraft limit the sum of ALL feeder airlines or PER feeder airline? How would this affect Pinnacle and their hiring?

 

[ilinipilot]

Yes, it is true Republic has options for 36 170s over the next two years. I did not know this but BB makes reference to this in his conference call. If you want to hear it, search around yahoo.finance.com. I don't believe the a/c are allocated to any carrier yet and I am sure UAL, DL, NW all want in on it. If you called brazil to order one today I dont know how long it would take to get one. Also the options are for any plane in the family 170-195

D

 

[avrodriver]

Yes we do. According to the financials there are 35 options and 4 firm. BB is very smart. If anyone wants to get into the E170 market to compete then they have to wait, because RJET gets first delivery options. That is a very good advantage to have when you are submitting an RFP.

I seem to remember all the JetBlue guys running around saying nobody else can get the 190 for the first two years of service....yet somehow US Airways is suppose to be getting them later this year.

Your above satement is that if I put in a order for 35 "firm" a/c I'm going to have to wait because RJET has "options" on 35.....hmmmm.

 

[FlyinPiker]

Options don't mean sh*t. Air Wisco had options on another 70 a/c ( CL-65 family) in addition to the ones we have now......does this mean we're a shoe in for any 905 flying.

I'm pretty sure Emb is looking to peddal these things to anyone who is interested, and with the potential for such a large order.......170's, 190's, 195's. NW could probably get themselves a pretty nice deal, and for EMB a new customer.

 

[DoinTime]

Yes we do. According to the financials there are 35 options and 4 firm. BB is very smart. If anyone wants to get into the E170 market to compete then they have to wait, because RJET gets first delivery options. That is a very good advantage to have when you are submitting an RFP.

An option is exactly that, an option. If Republic does not get the flying they will not convert the option. Some other company will step in and make a real order and get all the airplanes they can afford. Embrear will not hessitate to sell all the airplanes that they can produce.

I seem to remember all the JetBlue guys running around saying nobody else can get the 190 for the first two years of service....yet somehow US Airways is suppose to be getting them later this year.

Not to mention Air Canada taking 190 deliveries like they are going out of style.

 

[Indy319FA]

I seem to remember all the JetBlue guys running around saying nobody else can get the 190 for the first two years of service....yet somehow US Airways is suppose to be getting them later this year.

Your above satement is that if I put in a order for 35 "firm" a/c I'm going to have to wait because RJET has "options" on 35.....hmmmm.

The 190s Airways will be receiving were supposed to go to jetBlue, but they have backed off on some of their deliveries, opening the door for US. Right now Republic/Shuttle America are the biggest players in the 170 game, and if you want them fast, then Republic has a lock. If you are willing to wait, then there are other options. Embraer could always increase production to get 170s to other carriers. Another advantage for Republic is the current trend towards spreading contracts over several different carriers. Both sides are doing this to get the best rates they can for their contracts. I think its pretty safe to say that there will be some more players in the NW Airlink game, and I also think both Mesaba and Pinnacle will begin to try and get some contracts with other airlines besides NWA. After the way NW stiffed them in this bankruptcy, they would be foolish to rely on NWA as their only source of income.

 

[Indy319FA]

NW could probably get themselves a pretty nice deal, and for EMB a new customer.

I'll be surprised if NWA buys them. They need to get rid of as much debt as they can so why go into debt for these airplanes, when you can have somebody else do that for you, and get the same lift.

 

[avrodriver]

Right now Republic/Shuttle America are the biggest players in the 170 game, and if you want them fast, then Republic has a lock. If you are willing to wait, then there are other options.

I believe you are the only players in the game at least the states.

What makes you believe that NW needs these planes here tomorrow?? Is there some type of rush to get them??

These planes are not going to magically start making them buttloads of money. That's what the contract slashing is for. No matter how this plays out, they are going to save/make millions off the pilots flying the current fleet "as is" the day after it is signed.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually I heard it was the other way around. Anyway it all revolves around the almighty dollar, and you can bet NW will put the aircraft where it will make them the most money. A big part of this will be who can get the best financing terms on the aircraft, and right now that looks to be Republic.

You obviously don't know NWA management very well. With Steenland and the rest of his Lorenzo-crony accomplices, power is much more preferable than profits. Steenland would give up millions upon millions in profits in order to secure more control over his feed. Remember, these men all worshiped at the alter of Frank Lorenzo 20 years ago. They didn't learn how to run a profitable airline, they learned how to bust labor and shift money to different accounts to protect their own best interests. The interests of shareholders, employees, and other stakeholders are completely irrelevant to these guys. As long as they have their golden parachutes (and believe me, they do have them), then they can waste untold billions on busting labor just to stroke their egos.

P.S. NWA doesn't need Bedford to get their hands on EMBs. Trust me. There are always ways to get airplanes if you want them. Bedford doesn't have a monopoly on EMB options.

 

[avrodriver]

A big part of this will be who can get the best financing terms on the aircraft, and right now that looks to be Republic.

Why do you assume this? Because you already have the plane on the property?

Any money saved by Republic getting better financing is going to be lost by what ever money Republic charges NW to fly them for.

Enter PCL's argument of control. If I have to pay someone to operate them....wouldn't it be nice if they were my personal puppets operating at whatever cost I forced them into?

BB isn't going to operate these things at cost is he??

 

[Indy319FA]

What makes you believe that NW needs these planes here tomorrow?? Is there some type of rush to get them??

Dont know. Who knows what these guys are thinking. According to what has been posted here, they have really left their options open in this TA.

Personally, I am very reluctant to see Republic have anything to do with NWA. There are better opportunities out there. I worked at Mesaba and at NWA for a while, and I've seen how their management treats their employees, partners, and customers. I have no great desire to go back to working with them again. I don't think BB does either, but if the offer is good enough, it is all about money in the end.

What I do think is NWA will farm this flying out to somebody besides Mesaba and Pinnacle, and they will have to finance the aircraft on their own. It will be interesting to see who gets the flying, and what aircraft they will use.

 

[avrodriver]

I have no great desire to go back to working with them again. I don't think BB does either, but if the offer is good enough, it is all about money in the end.

HA! Good stuff.

What I do think is NWA will farm this flying out to somebody besides Mesaba and Pinnacle, and they will have to finance the aircraft on their own.

Would not surprise me one bit.

I'm a former XJer myself...so obviously I'm pulling for whatever they can get out of this bull$hit situation.

 

[Indy319FA]

P.S. NWA doesn't need Bedford to get their hands on EMBs. Trust me. There are always ways to get airplanes if you want them. Bedford doesn't have a monopoly on EMB options.

I never said that. What I said is right now RP has the upper hand because it is ahead of other companies with the aircraft. Plus the 170 is a popular aircraft right now and the finance rates will be higher for NWA than a company not in bankruptcy. Plus, all of the legacy carriers are trying to get rid of as much debt as possible, so why assume that debt, when somebody else can do it for you.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

NWA does NOT want the E170 aircraft, it can't be configured into the correct seating configuration. The aircraft they want to buy has options avialable, and they can recieve deliveries as early as the end of summer time. By the way the company purchasing the jets is NWA holdings, and that company is in amazing finacial shape.

 

[PCL_128]

NWA does NOT want the E170 aircraft, it can't be configured into the correct seating configuration. The aircraft they want to buy has options avialable, and they can recieve deliveries as early as the end of summer time. By the way the company purchasing the jets is NWA holdings, and that company is in amazing finacial shape.

YPS, what aircraft do you think they want? I agree that it won't be the -170, but I do believe that it will be an EMB variant, most likely -180s or -190s configured with two classes.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

YPS, what aircraft do you think they want? I agree that it won't be the -170, but I do believe that it will be an EMB variant, most likely -180s or -190s configured with two classes.

Both Bambardier and Embraer have been here in the last few months, trust me, we can get aircraft almost immediately. We need a two class jet and it's going to be either the CRJ705 or the ERJ175 both are avialable and both have no other companies buying them or with options except Air Canada/Jazz on the 705. Republic does not have options on the E175, in fact, no company does.

 

[PCL_128]

trust me, we can get aircraft almost immediately.

Yep, I don't doubt it. All of this talk of 3 year waiting lists and such is ridiculous. When NWA wants these airplanes, they'll get them.

 

[SF340Guy]

Both Bambardier and Embraer have been here in the last few months, trust me, we can get aircraft almost immediately. We need a two class jet and it's going to be either the CRJ705 or the ERJ175 both are avialable and both have no other companies buying them or with options except Air Canada/Jazz on the 705. Republic does not have options on the E175, in fact, no company does.

A snippet from the RJET financial report since I don't feel like posting the whole thing, and you don't feel like reading it:

As of December 31, 2005, our operational fleet consisted of 142 aircraft, including 47 ERJ-170, 70-seat and larger regional jets and 95 ERJ-145 family, 37-50 seat regional jets. Further, as of December 31, 2005, and in addition to the 18 regional jets which we will obtain from US Airways, we have agreed to place into service an additional seven 70-seat regional jets for Delta through 2006. These seven 70-seat regional jets are covered by firm orders we have with Embraer. We also had four firm orders and options for 35 regional jets as of December 31, 2005, which we may convert to options for ERJ-175, ERJ-190 or ERJ-195 aircraft which range in size from 78 seats to 110 seats. http://biz.yahoo.com/e/060227/rjet10-k.html


Max seating on the EMB175 = 86 seats. Since that number is specifically mentioned in the TA, I kinda feel that that is the aircraft they are looking at. Call me crazy...

 

[EMB170Pilot]

I would just like to say what a great day for flightinfo. After 2 pages of posts and still a good discussion with no flame or insults being thrown.

I'm impressed:beer:

 

[wmudriver]

When is NWA Alpa going to vote on this TA...I know they have to do roadshows, but has there been a date for the vote?

Is XJ slated to get 35 planes as replacement or are the 35 planes going to unknown company? Even the bullet point summery of the TA was in legaleze and a bit confusing.
It seemed like they were dangling a carrott possibly disguised as a turd.

 

[jetfo]

You obviously don't know NWA management very well. With Steenland and the rest of his Lorenzo-crony accomplices, power is much more preferable than profits. Steenland would give up millions upon millions in profits in order to secure more control over his feed. Remember, these men all worshiped at the alter of Frank Lorenzo 20 years ago. They didn't learn how to run a profitable airline, they learned how to bust labor and shift money to different accounts to protect their own best interests. The interests of shareholders, employees, and other stakeholders are completely irrelevant to these guys. As long as they have their golden parachutes (and believe me, they do have them), then they can waste untold billions on busting labor just to stroke their egos.

P.S. NWA doesn't need Bedford to get their hands on EMBs. Trust me. There are always ways to get airplanes if you want them. Bedford doesn't have a monopoly on EMB options.

Where the hell is good old Frank these days?!? Does anyone know?!? We should stop by and say hello ;-)

I do recall him commenting on some of the recent events in the media.

 

[jetfo]

Dont know. Who knows what these guys are thinking. According to what has been posted here, they have really left their options open in this TA.

Personally, I am very reluctant to see Republic have anything to do with NWA. There are better opportunities out there. I worked at Mesaba and at NWA for a while, and I've seen how their management treats their employees, partners, and customers. I have no great desire to go back to working with them again. I don't think BB does either, but if the offer is good enough, it is all about money in the end.

What I do think is NWA will farm this flying out to somebody besides Mesaba and Pinnacle, and they will have to finance the aircraft on their own. It will be interesting to see who gets the flying, and what aircraft they will use.

It's called pay to play!

 

[jetfo]

NWA does NOT want the E170 aircraft, it can't be configured into the correct seating configuration. The aircraft they want to buy has options avialable, and they can recieve deliveries as early as the end of summer time. By the way the company purchasing the jets is NWA holdings, and that company is in amazing finacial shape.

So much intelligence, too bad you can't spell?!?

 

[jetfo]

YPS, what aircraft do you think they want? I agree that it won't be the -170, but I do believe that it will be an EMB variant, most likely -180s or -190s configured with two classes.

180's ?!?