Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

NW pilots to take cuts---Read this

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
NWA pilots ready to take cuts

BY MARTIN J. MOYLAN

Pioneer Press


Northwest Airlines' union pilots are willing to be the first group of employees to give the struggling carrier the wage and other labor-cost breaks it says it needs to turn itself around.

But the pilots would expect stock, enhanced job security and other rewards for going first — and striking a deal before a bankruptcy becomes a real possibility for the Eagan-based airline, the leader of the pilots' union said Wednesday. And they expect other employees to follow them in making sacrifices that bring their wages and work rules toward current industry standards.

"The pilots of Northwest Airlines are not interested in taking long-term pay cuts while everyone else sits on the sidelines and watches,'' said Mark McClain, union executive council chairman for the Northwest Airlines Air Line Pilots Association. "We saw a situation at Eastern (Airlines) in the '80s, where the pilots took pay cuts and the mechanics got raises. That is very, very damaging for long-term viability."

Pilots are weighing a proposal to give Northwest $200 million a year in labor savings through 2006. The savings would flow primarily from wage reductions and work-rule changes.

At Northwest, pilots start at about $35,000 annually. The most-senior pilots can make $225,000 or so a year.

On Wednesday, McClain and other union leaders discussed the proposal with some 200 Northwest pilots at a Bloomington hotel. More meetings are coming in the next few weeks. If the proposal wins strong support among rank-and-file members, it likely will be put on the bargaining table.

Pilots would expect to be rewarded for sacrifices and leadership, McClain said.

"We will be looking for a piece of the action,'' he said. "We have taken stock before. We would expect stock and profit sharing and some job security provisions. … If we help the airline avoid bankruptcy, there should be a premium in it for us and we expect there will be."

Northwest has promised that management will make financial sacrifices once one union agrees to give it acceptable cost breaks, McClain said.

If other unions do not make fair sacrifices, the pilots' proposal would have the union back at the bargaining table by the end of 2005 to address that and other issues, McClain noted.

"Our analysis has shown that pilots and management alone can't solve the problems facing Northwest,'' McClain said. "We are tying to find time (for the company) to refinance debt, bridge to a better revenue environment and allow time for contract negotiations with other employee groups."

If the pilots move down toward industry compensation averages, so should other employees, McClain said.

"The pilot group at Northwest recognizes that pilot costs are at the higher end of the industry,'' he said. "But we don't feel Northwest pilots should be singled out. We are willing to make adjustments to provide Northwest with competitive pilot costs. But we're not going to solve the problem ourselves. It will take everybody."

Northwest is in contract talks with the union representing sales agents, baggage handlers and other ground workers. But contracts with the mechanics' and flight attendants' unions are not amendable until next year. And those unions have said they're not interested in discussing concession with Northwest and won't open up their contracts early.

The pilots are contemplating labor cost cuts that fall far short of those sought by Northwest, which has shed 17,000 jobs and lost nearly $2.2 billion on its operations in the past three years.

In February of last year, the airline asked pilots for about $440 million in annual wage and other concessions over 6½ years.

McClain dismissed that pitch as a management wish list that would place the airline's pilot costs below those of its main rivals.

The airline contends it needs to shave its labor costs by nearly $1 billion a year to compete with low-fare carriers such as Southwest and JetBlue, as well as traditional rivals such as American and United, which have extracted billions of dollars in concessions from their union workers.

In the fourth quarter of 2003, Northwest had a labor cost per available seat mile of 4.2 cents, compared with 3.7 cents for United, 3.6 cents for American and 3.4 cents for Continental.




Notice that the NW pilots will take cuts if EVERYONE participates. And, they are treating it like an investment. Hmmmmm. They can have the money now or wait it out--like us.

Bye Bye--General Lee
:rolleyes:
 
give backs V/S investments

Still some details yet to learn, but for now I think this is a positive move for both the NWA pilots and the profession in general.

They'll give back to help the company, but want stock and/or profit sharing to reward their investment IF things improve, and there's something like a snapback if, in 2 years, other groups think they can use the pilot cuts to subsidize their full pay to the last day fantasy.

From the tone of the pilot's statements, they feel they are in somewhat of a position of power to make some demands (and I agree.) So let's see if Duane lives up to his word and they "put some skin in the game" to deliver on his "brand scope" rhetoric.

And besides, if these pay cuts aren't enough they can always agree to fly all aircraft for reduced DC-9 rates for growth and 18 month upgrades. A lot less money but with the growth they would have better lines and with all those upgrades they would be getting lots of PIC time to qualify for Delta, Southwest and Virgin USA someday. Brilliant!

Where do I sign up for one of those copy making NWA internships, before its too late!

Seriously though, this seems like a sensibile plan. Way better than UAL and USAir's massive unaccountable givebacks and "Mesa minus" EMB-175 rates. May mediators have mercy on any of us in negotiations once they start flying 80 seat mainline jets for Dash-8 pay.
 
Why can't we all just get along? Delta's management has to understand that AA wages will not work in this case. Delta is not suffering (yet) like AA was at that time. It is better to negotiate now and start to see improvement in the bottom line sooner than later. Is that not logical? Delta's management seems he11 bent on steering for bankruptcy - doesn't that violate fiduciary duties toward the shareholders? I bet it does!

Good luck to the Delta and Northwest pilots out there!!!! Someone has to hold the line so that all of the young regional pilots out there can someday own a decent house in the burbs...
 
Please Re-read these three paragraphs---I didn't write them--the NW ALPA guy did---but it sure sounds like what I have been spouting.....And it is true.



"The pilots of Northwest Airlines are not interested in taking long-term pay cuts while everyone else sits on the sidelines and watches,'' said Mark McClain, union executive council chairman for the Northwest Airlines Air Line Pilots Association. "We saw a situation at Eastern (Airlines) in the '80s, where the pilots took pay cuts and the mechanics got raises. That is very, very damaging for long-term viability."


"We will be looking for a piece of the action,'' he said. "We have taken stock before. We would expect stock and profit sharing and some job security provisions. … If we help the airline avoid bankruptcy, there should be a premium in it for us and we expect there will be."


"The pilot group at Northwest recognizes that pilot costs are at the higher end of the industry,'' he said. "But we don't feel Northwest pilots should be singled out. We are willing to make adjustments to provide Northwest with competitive pilot costs. But we're not going to solve the problem ourselves. It will take everybody."



Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Northwest's contract was amendable somewhere in the neighborhood of two years ago, I believe they signed an extension to keep it at current rates for another year when it was first amendable, and they've been at the tables for almost a year now...

The General is exactly right, NW pilots are in a much better position to dictate terms of any "givebacks" that may be needed, the union's analysts said that the company overall did need to trim some fat off overall labor costs, so the union is looking to make sure they don't screw the pooch and get an overall package that is balanced.

Try this: You're a 15-year narrowbody Airbus Captain making $175k a year (round numbers people, don't get nitpicky). You agree to a 5% reduction in pay, work rule concessions that give back another 5%, no pension reduction, so an overall 10% pay cut. Then you get 5% stock added to your compensation yearly plus a better 401k match totaling 2%, that gives you 7% of that 10% back, in addition to the job protection clauses (scope that keeps 70- and 90- seat RJ's on their property, no furlough clauses, etc).

If all the groups give back something, NW's profit margin improves, their stock's valuation increases and with it the stock prices go back up, and you end up with nearly the same money back in your pocket in the long run, while helping your company cut their immediate costs.

Of course, all depends on the depth of the cuts (I think management wanted $600 Million in cuts, the pilot group is recommending $200 Million mixed with pay and work rules), and the amount of stock and profit sharing... Should be interesting to watch.
 
On Your Six said:
Why can't we all just get along? Delta's management has to understand that AA wages will not work in this case. Delta is not suffering (yet) like AA was at that time. It is better to negotiate now and start to see improvement in the bottom line sooner than later. Is that not logical? Delta's management seems he11 bent on steering for bankruptcy - doesn't that violate fiduciary duties toward the shareholders? I bet it does!
Delta and American began this fall from different positions. American started "September 11th" with flight 175 from Boston that went into the Southwest Tower of the World Trade Center. Then Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. A few months later flight 587 went into Queens. Look what one crash did to Val U Jet, and consider that American went through three in less than a year.

American started their fall from the position of a V1 cut at max gross in Dallas in the Summertime. At the same time Delta was comfortably cruising at 41,000 feet - having just began their decent from the highest altitude they had ever attained, financially. The top of Delta's flight coincided with the conclusion of contract negotiations and a $600,000,000 strike at Comair.

From that position Delta has fallen at a steep angle. I hired in just before the crest and at the time Delta had less than 1.5 Billion in debt. Now Delta has 10.4 Billion in obligations and has been borrowing money against assets to fund losses for some time now.

If Delta is losing 4,500 feet a minute in a box canyon created by the 2005 debt obligations piled on while Mullins was trying to maintan Delta's cash position to out last US Air and United. The strategy was to survive until the competition was dead.

That strategy was flawed. Uncle Sam guaranteed loans to US Air and United, American got efficient, Continental remained efficient, and here comes Virgin with cool toilets.

Delta needs to not only stop the sink rate, but to regain altitude before the cash crunch of 2005. In many ways the situation at Delta is much worse than American because of the rate of change. At some point it becomes an unreccoverable dive and based on pure numbers that time has actually passed ( hence the market valuation ). But funny things happen with big employers during election years.

~~~^~~~
 
Last edited:
Ah yes. The downward spiral contines. Looks like SW will be the highest paid pretty soon

Soooo WN will be the only ones STILL making $225K??
 
SWA = $$$

If I recall, SWA pilots are due for a pretty good pay raise this year. The numbers I saw (from ALPA) showed that after these raises, they will surpass the hourly rate of Alaska, and all other 737 drivers out there, except Delta. Combine that with their stock options, and I believe that very soon SWA pilots will be the highest paid narrow body pilots in the nation.

So now every time our Management tells us that they want us to be more like Southwest, I say "Great! When do I get my pay raise and stock options?"

SWA makes money in the worst of times, with some of the most expensive pilots. Makes me think that the problem is not labor, but then again, what do I know, I'm not a CEO with millions in the bank...
 
There's a lot of incorrect information in these posts.

The facts are-

--we are in Section 6 negotiations

--we are exploring an investment proposal

--if / when our hourly rate is reduced, SWA will be the highest paid pilots......behind Delta
 
General Lee said:
"The pilots of Northwest Airlines are not interested in taking long-term pay cuts while everyone else sits on the sidelines and watches,''

Who has the most to lose if NWA entered BK? The Pilots. The other groups can afford to play chicken with NWA mgmt. Too much bad blood from the '93-'96 concessions with the other groups. As far as Delta, with the rest of their Labor being NON-Union it's just a case of Management sticking it to the pilots. In BK there would be no contracts to restructure for them. They can already pay them what they want.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Delta and American began this fall from different positions. American started "September 11th" with flight 175 from Boston that went into the Southwest Tower of the World Trade Center. Then Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. A few months later flight 587 went into Queens. Look what one crash did to Val U Jet, and consider that American went through three in less than a year.

American started their fall from the position of a V1 cut at max gross in Dallas in the Summertime. At the same time Delta was comfortably cruising at 41,000 feet - having just began their decent from the highest altitude they had ever attained, financially. The top of Delta's flight coincided with the conclusion of contract negotiations and a $600,000,000 strike at Comair.

From that position Delta has fallen at a steep angle. I hired in just before the crest and at the time Delta had less than 1.5 Billion in debt. Now Delta has 10.4 Billion in obligations and has been borrowing money against assets to fund losses for some time now.



If Delta is losing 4,500 feet a minute in a box canyon created by the 2005 debt obligations piled on while Mullins was trying to maintan Delta's cash position to out last US Air and United. The strategy was to survive until the competition was dead.

That strategy was flawed. Uncle Sam guaranteed loans to US Air and United, American got efficient, Continental remained efficient, and here comes Virgin with cool toilets.

Delta needs to not only stop the sink rate, but to regain altitude before the cash crunch of 2005. In many ways the situation at Delta is much worse than American because of the rate of change. At some point it becomes an unreccoverable dive and based on pure numbers that time has actually passed ( hence the market valuation ). But funny things happen with big employers during election years.

~~~^~~~

Very well written!
 
Hey Gen

You forgot this sentence:
And they expect other employees to follow them in making sacrifices that bring their wages and work rules toward current industry standards.

I think this is also a key. If those other employees are making above industry standards, then they should also give (like you state) to bring their wages TOWARDS the current industry standard. But, if they are already at or below, then they should not have to give further which is the case with Delta. Ya, I know that we have senior guys making the higher scales, but if those scales are average or just slightly above, then they should not have to give. Comair is only about 2-3% higher than the next highest group, but if you want them to give, you will put them below and you certainly wont be helping us at ASA while trying to secure a contract. I think it would be perfectly fair for DALPA to want all of the employees to help out if mainline pay was at or near industry average. But to want to put all other employees below industry average while you guys remain well above upholding the industry for the good of the profession, well forget it!:rolleyes:
 
<<That strategy was flawed. Uncle Sam guaranteed loans to US Air and United,>>

I don't think United has been approved for any guaranteed loans...yet. Probably will not be.
 
hardly

>>Who has the most to lose if NWA entered BK? The Pilots. The other groups can afford to play chicken with NWA mgmt.<<

canyonblue,

While its true the pilots would have a lot to lose in BK, I wouldn't say the other groups can afford to play chicken. There may be a few gate agents, ticket agents, flight attendants and even mechanics who could just walk away from NWA (or any airline for that matter) and pick right up at another job making the same money, but I bet they are few.

I could see them filling out the job applications now:
Previous experience: Flight attendant, 28 years
Salary expected: $60,000

If they play chicken they will lose and they know it.
 
Actually, NWA is a closely held company. Meaning Gary Wilson, Al Chechi and friends have the most to loose in bankruptcy. They are all from the Wings group, the investors in the initial ipo from the early 90's.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top