Now to really stir things up!!

[philo beddoe]

I want to switch our flight school back to the manual
E-6B.

Reasons:

Cheaper for the poor students
Doesn't break when you drop it
Faster, once you're good with it
No batteries
No one steals them

And the biggest reason of all:

No one makes a really durable, nice electronic version that lasts for years the way Hewlett Packard calculators do.

If I'm spending $80, I want it to last longer than my CFI training.

 

[AV1ATRX]

I'm surprised to hear that a flight school has all their students using an electronic E6B. I have yet to meet a DPE that would let the students use one of those on the checkride. They could take it with them, but they had to demonstrate that they could use the whiz wheel first. The DPE would always say what you've already said: no batteries. If any of the students would insist on using the electronic one, they would "fail the instrument" on them and see if they could use the whiz wheel.
With flight training costing as much as it does, it is entirely unneccessary to force the student to pay for something they don't actually need.

My first cross country was a nightmare because I insisted to my instructor that he let me use the electronic verson instead of the whiz wheel. Every time I looked down to calculate something, the airplane would depart controlled flight!! (I know, there are other basic issues there...) Once I broke out the whiz wheel and didn't have to punch numbers or hope it didn't get turned off, I could actually fly and do my nav log. I will never give up my electronic E6B for other reasons (like doing pressure and density altitude in a second, and changing times to HMS), but that one event shaped my opinion of those things for the entire time I flight instructed.

 

[efiscompmon]

"I'm not even supposed to be here today"

-----------------------------
I must disagree, though

Cheaper for the poor students
--how poor can you be taking flying lessons?

Doesn't break when you drop it
--don't drop it!

Faster, once you're good with it
--but not necessarily more accurate

No batteries
--good point

No one steals them
--paint-pen your name in big pink letters on the back.

If I am doing flight planning I want the most accurate inforation available. Just because old coots like to do things the hard way or "we've always done it that way" is a crock.

FYI, the FAA is putting emphasis on applicants' use of flight planning software for checkrides. No one (under 40) is going to use the E6B for 15 minutes to plan a 40 minute flight. They are going to go to the PC and let it spit out a completed plan with DUATs WX. Let's make sure they can use THOSE tools correctly, not a slide rule!
----------------
"This is Randal at at RST video, customer nuber 11238. I'd like to place an order."

 

[bobbysamd]

E-6b

I want to switch our flight school back to the manual
E-6B.

Reasons:

Cheaper for the poor students
Doesn't break when you drop it
Faster, once you're good with it
No batteries
No one steals them

And the biggest reason of all:

No one makes a really durable, nice electronic version that lasts for years the way Hewlett Packard calculators do.

The real reason, though, should be for understanding and training. Working out problems using a whizwheel really furthers understanding of the concepts.

I had a washed-out AF UPT student who wanted to finish her private. I remember how she calculated decent times and rates, etc. using her E6-B, in our ordinary 172. She must have used it for the same thing in her 'tweets and T-38s. The AF obviously trained her that way. I was impressed.

I think you have a good idea. Perhaps, as a compromise, let the students have simple electronic calculators just for arithmetic.

 

[English]

I have yet to meet a DPE that would let the students use one of those on the checkride. QUOTE]

All I, or my students, ever used was an electronic E6B. I used several different DPEs for my students and not one word was ever said about it.

The technology is there - why not use it?

 

[wmuflyguy]

My first cross country was a nightmare because I insisted to my instructor that he let me use the electronic verson instead of the whiz wheel. Every time I looked down to calculate something, the airplane would depart controlled flight!!

I'm sure lining up A and B scales and then looking around that thing for you answer is so much easier and quicker than punchung in 5 numbers and getting the answer right infront of you. It is easier for osme things, like TIME/SPEED/DISTANCE...but the navlog should have been filled out on the ground and you should only have to use it sparingly in flight.

I have yet to meet a DPE that would let the students use one of those on the checkride.

I have yet to meet a DPE that WONT let a student use one on a checkride. Whats the point there, the student gets the correct answer either way, it just seems petty. Who cares let the student decide what he wants.

As for batteries, you should always carry an extra set if you have equipment that needs them, like flashlites, flight computers and etc.

 

[Lead Sled]

Save your money and stay with cheap plastic E6Bs. Once you break into the "big leagues" (airline or corporate) you'll tuck them away into a dark crevase in your flight bag, never to see the light of day or the darkness of night again - all thanks to the modern miracle of computerized flight planning. Don't believe me? Just ask any corporate jet or airline captain.

Lead Sled

 

[vclean]

What's an E6-B?

 

[pilotyip]

E-6b

Goes back to WWII. The E-6B is basic navigation calculator; it has circular wind face with a sliding card TAS variance scale on one side and a whiz wheel for GS vs. Distance and Fuel Burn vs. time on the other side. I still have my 1962 Jepp's plastic E-6B with a six-inch face 200 KTs max speed; it is all I ever use. Even though I have GPs in my private airplane. I love to navigate. I also have my Navy issue, forgot to turn it in, aluminum E-6B 3-inch face 700 KTs max speed. I used the Navy one for numerous Oceanic DR/Cel Nav crossing. I agree with Bobby on this, although you do not need a college degree to work the E-6B. Understanding the relationship between wind, TAS, drift angel, and effect of wind change with a 10-degree course correction and the effect upon ground speed is easily visualized. I know understanding this made me a better Navigator. Using the electronic E-6B without understanding this relationship would be like solving algebra problems without ever taking algebra.

 

[dseagrav]

Question - And my instructor didn't know either -
Why is it designated "E6-B"? Was there an E3,4,5, etc? What about an E6-A?

 

[Mooseflyer]

Hard to believe any DPE would not allow their use - the FAA has allowed them when taking the written tests for years.

 

[340drvr]

The real reason, though, should be for understanding and training. Working out problems using a whizwheel really furthers understanding of the concepts.

I think you have a good idea. Perhaps, as a compromise, let the students have simple electronic calculators just for arithmetic.

Gotta agree here, especially for wind triangle problems. And, for the arithmetic, I'd vote for electronic, can't see doing weight and balance on the whiz wheel.

 

[Cat Driver]

I am a firm believer in doing things the " old " way.

When planning trans oceanic flights I always draw in my 10 degree drift lines so I can map read my way back on track.

ADF's are the only electronic method of navigation that I can trust for maintaining an accurate track, especially when out in the middle of the ocean.

In fact I can't think of a better means of time to station than using the ADF and calculating the bearing change.

I would never allow a GPS aboard any airplane that I fly, what would happen if the thing failed? or world war three breaks out and they command the satellites to give false information?

Another pet peeve of mine is pilots using satellite phones for communications when we have HF for communications way out over the ocean.

No sir the old tried and true rules for me.

The E6B is the only way to go, all these new fangled electronic gadgets do not belong in a " real " pilots flight bag.

Cat Driver

 

[I.P. Freley]

Yeah, and those new-fangled "jets" have no place in the sky, either.

I won't get into your technophobia any further, except to point out that if WWIII breaks out, you will have much bigger issues to keep yourself occupied than whether or not the GPS signals get cut off. Now whether initial students or instrument pilot students should use GPS is another story... Learn the basics, the basics you will find in every imaginable airplane, and then learn about the GPS stuff after you have your ticket.

My students all used the electronic E6B or the Jepp flight calculator, and not a one had any trouble on their check rides. I learned with the olde-tech E6B, but didn't find it necessary to force my students into using it. In fact, the last time I saw any flight computer that wasn't battery-powered was the day I took my PP check ride... Which were all over the market over a decade ago and hardly qualify as "new-fangled". Using that argument, the laptop is REALLY new-fangled, and they're as common as the cold these days.

 

[Swede]

Cat you crack me up! You ARE goofing on us, right? Tell me your post is a gag.

If not, I honor your commitment and attention to detail, but there isn't a major carrier aloft over the ocean that doesn't use GPS as the primary nav tool. Usually it's FMS GPS backed by inertial. The boys that have the real problems (the dreaded "Gross Nav Error", open your wallet wide please) are the older jets which use only inertial and land-based navaids. The older DC-10's come to mind, not sure about the freight boys in DC-8's and 707's.

I'd say 96% of violations come from incorrect clearance readback, incorrect programming of the FMS, basic pilot buffoonery.

Satcom vs HF? The only reason we use HF instead of satellites for comm is because of the horribly entrenched "good ol' boy" clans which run Gander and Shanwick, at least over the atlantic. Making a SATCOM call to dispatch from over Greenland is as clear and easy as ordering a Dominos pizza from home. HF sucks - scratchy and prone to atmospheric phenomenon, and congested beyond belief.

 

[Cat Driver]

I.P. ...

You don't think I was being serious with that post do you?

As to the wind calculations thing, just give them a piece of paper, a protractor, a ruler and a pencil and show them how the triangle of velocities work then let them use any computer they want.

WW3 may not happen either, just vote in the person that will suck up to the fanatics and you will not have to worry about war, why would they go to war with a country they already control?

Cat Driver

 

[bobbysamd]

W & B

And, for the arithmetic, I'd vote for electronic, can't see doing weight and balance on the whiz wheel.

Though a whizwheel works well for W & B shifting and addition/subtraction problems. It's a proportion problem. Just set up the knowns as fractions and you'll see the unknown immediately.

 

[njcapt]

I found my old aluminum E6-B during my latest move and could still use it as a circular slide rule twenty years after I took it out of my flight bag. Ya oughta be able to do all the basic functions using the whiz-wheel though, if a student can plan a long cross country using the whiz-wheel, let 'em use whatever they want after that.

 

[AV1ATRX]

I typically don't post because I never seem to make myself clear, and this is a classic example. I didn't say that I don't believe in them (the electronic E6B) - I never leave the ground without it. And my students had to demonstrate to me that they could plan a flight the old fashioned way, because I believe it is a skill every pilot should have (not just be able to get it printed off from some website or software). I also believe that every pilot should be able to use the manual E6B, again because it is a skill every pilot should have.

That being said, once I felt sure that the student could do it all the hard way, I let them choose how they did it. I think the DPE issue might be a regional sort of thing. All of them required the student to demonstrate the ability to use it to do calculations with the whiz wheel. After that, they could do what they wanted to. They didn't care if flight planning software was used, either.

As for my own flight, all the nav log was completed before we left except for the times. My instructor required me to compute Actual Time Enroute, ETA for next leg, fuel burn for each leg. And if there was a wind change, figure out what the next heading would be. All with the whiz wheel, every leg, every cross country flight.

Now, I feel better.... Can I get some Chewlies gum?

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Reasons to be proficient at the old ways...

On my instrument checkride, I was doing a GPS approach (one of those that says NDB or GPS - RWY 9 at the top of the approach plate) when about half way through the approach the DPE reached up and turned the GPS off, simulating a failure. Time for plan B... the NDB/ADF version... in other words, the "old way". If the NDB or ADF had gone out I could have gone to a VOR-A. My point is, since all of this equipment is developed and made by humans, it can and will fail when you least expect it to.

My old Palm Pilot PDA batteries went dead when I was on a night cross country while I was using some flight planning software on it. Time to get out the piece of aluminum with all the markings on it.

Unless they have changed things recently, the military still teaches its pilots and navigators to use the aluminum boards in flight school. Yes, the C-17 and C-130J have some really nice glass cockpits and don't have navigators (though I have been told by many pilots that they wish they had the NFO at times) but when a lightning strike takes out some electronic stuff, you have to rely on the time tested and seasoned forms of doing things. Same goes with that little electronic E6B (not that I think a lightning strike is going to jump from the panel to your lap where the little thing sits while you punch the keys but you could drop it, step on it, spill coffee on it, etc.)

It is my personal belief (or opinion if you want to call it that) that if a young pilot applicant shows up with the aluminum E6B and knows how to use it well, he/she will gain a lot of respect from the DPE. That's something I gained from chatting with CFIs. I guess the same could be said for an older pilot applicant but if you ask my parents, they would like to go back to the slide rule or abicus days.

 

[Flying Illini]

I tried to use an electronic e6-b during my commercial ride. During the oral he told me the batteries failed, so I replaced them. He told me those failed, so I replaced those, the told me those failed, so I replaced those. He then asked me how many sets of batteries I had, I told him this was my last set. He then said that those failed too. I pulled out the e6-b and showed him what he wanted to see. He told me he just wanted to see if I could do it the "old" way. He let me use it the rest of the check-ride.

There is nothing wrong with electronic e6-b's. I don't think I could show you how to use the mechanical one.

The DPE's who say that you can't use the electronic computers probably are the same ones who think that GPS isn't here to stay and they don't think students should be learning how to use it in their primary training. Face it, glass cockpits and GPS are here to stay, get used to it. Take back-up batteries just like you do for that handheld GPS and transciever that goes on every flight with you. If all the batteries crap out, go buy new ones. If you drop and break your handheld e6-b, get a new one.
The technology is available, why not use it?

 

[AA717driver]

Remind me to put my 'bull$hit snorkel' on when Catdriver posts again!

BTW, real pilots can do the math in their heads... TC

P.S.--If anyone at Kingman or Marana finds an E6B in the FE desk on one of the TWA L1011's, please mail it back to me at...

 

[I.P. Freley]

Catdriver, a single wink would've helped!

 

[Cat Driver]

Ahh well, I had faith that someone would figure out I was being facecious.

My point is when a pilot understands the basics such as done with pencil, paper, protractor and ruler they then understand the effect of wind on the flight path and ground speed of the thing that they fly in.

Once this basic issue is understood they should be allowed to use whatever aid they choose and are comfortable with to flight plan...because the next lesson they will learn is once you are airborne and on your way the wind will change anyhow.

I no longer listen for the A and N signals or the on course humm that used to be transmitted over the airways, maybe out there in space somewhere the last airway transmission from those towers is still travelling on and on.

I do not even remember clearly how to navigate by astro compass or for that matter a sextant, there was a time that we had no choice as that was all we had.

I do however know how to use modern equipment such as GPS and when flying in areas of the planet where dead reckoning and map reading is difficult we rely on what ever aid is availiable.

Over vast deserts such as the Sahara or over oceans we always mark our maps with Lat and long at regular intervals from the GPS, just in case all our electronic aids go U.S.

I have had failures of every device known to mankind and when flying I use more than one such as GPS receivers. The only safety device I don't double up on are condoms ...hell you have to take a chance somewhere in life and I get far more pleasure screwing than flying so on that basis I will gamble.

And at my age time will kill me before AIDS can.

Cat Driver

 

[NJA Capt]

Face it, glass cockpits and GPS are here to stay, get used to it. Take back-up batteries just like you do for that handheld GPS and transciever that goes on every flight with you. If all the batteries crap out, go buy new ones. If you drop and break your handheld e6-b, get a new one.
The technology is available, why not use it?

Anybody else think it's funny that someone flying a Flacon 10/20 is talking about the wonders of Glass cockpits????

If I was your DPE, I would have busted you. Not for using the electronic E6B, but for carrying haz-mat (too many batteries ). I can hear it now, "Ladies and Gentlemen, This is your captain speaking..........I apologize for the delay, I had to buy new batteries for my E6B."

I had a electronic and manual E6B in College. Guess which one still works? Even with no batteries.

The technology is available, why not use it?
One of the first things to learn in a glass cockpit is when to QUIT using the magic, and fly the airplane......the old fashioned way.

 

[philo beddoe]

Accuracy? Not an issue betwen the two. Here's why:


IAS/TAS calculations - by the time you figure in instrument error and (more importantly) the fact that winds aloft forecast are just that - forecasts - you can do just as well with a paper E6-B.

Density altitude? No prob. Almost all performance sections of manuals do not require d.alt input. You enter the graph with pres alt and temp. D.alt is built into the table or graph.

Time/speed/distance: Well within the margin of error. Most pilots use mental quick math, anyway. A few knots or minutes en route won't make a difference.

 

[philo beddoe]

Second point, the paper E6-B is not some superior 'older' way.

I personally prefer the manual one because it is MUCH, MUCH faster than the electronic one both for plannig and in flight. I'll go head-to-head in a calculating contest with anyone who disagrees.

For example, when doing nav logs with a constant groundspeed, you do not need to keep entering new leg lengths, just keep reading off the dial.

I think the manual E6-B MIGHT, just maybe help the understanding of wind triangles, which I think should be taught in groundschool. Not so students will do them, but so taht they understand the physics behind wind correction angles.

Biggest thing is that the manual E6-B is a lower workload device in flight than the calculator. I've seen this first-hand too many times.

Also, if the examiner is 'failing' the batteris on the calculator, why isn't he taking away the manual E6-B and saying 'you just spilled coffee all over your whiz wheel'?

I see their point, but they should insist on mental math as a backup instead ofthe whiz wheel.

 

[Sarka]

Do your self a favor and learn the "old" ways, too. Dead reckoning and such are a dying art, but can save your butt in a pinch and as stated above are still pretty acurate. Remember, today's kids can't even figure out your correct change at the local Mickey d's without a calculator. It's really sad.

 

[No Delay]

Do you guys really fly around with those things?????

 

[jobear]

I let dispatch do my flight planning for me, as far as the other crap your all whinning about let the computer do it for ya thats why it's in the plane. ALL BOW BEFORE MY MIGHTY HONEYWELL PRIMUS FMS!


This response was written with tounge planted firmly in cheek

Jobear