NJA size

[CA1900]

Gut, we haven't had a contract negotiation since the integration. Prior to that, it wasn't a significant issue for NJA because we did very little long-haul airlining. Now it is an issue that affects our group, and knowing this union as I do, I'd be very surprised if airline standards, and other QOL issues, weren't on the table next round. Even the 10-hour thing is totally arbitrary, which is why we need a policy in the contract.

 

[realityman]

Sorry Fisch,

It's pretty clear nobody at NJASAP wants to expend negotiating capital on the 10 hour coach issue. We're stuck with it for about, oh, another 5-6 years by my count. Maybe longer. Supporting or not supporting NJASAP won't make a lick of difference on that score.

My advice to anybody thinking about bidding the Global? Move west first.

You're wrong.

It IS something the union is interested in fixing. And now you can see why having a CBA is very important. The coach vs. business/first class seating is NOT in the CBA anywhere. How, exactly, do we fix something that is strictly company policy? We have no minor dispute process to fall back on with this. Should we simply ask the company to make the change? Yeah, they've been so willing to engage us on ANYTHING thus far.

Well, there is one way we could fix it before the next round of section 6 (you're right, it could be quite a while if we wait for that). Give your leadership some leverage. How do you do that? Easy, ask yourself this question: How many times, after a long airline in coach, have you called in fatigued? THAT is the leverage that will allow our union leaders to precipitate a change in this airline policy.

Now, we have one of the best fatigue policies around, and I am NOT advocating abusing it to get our way with the airline policy. I'm simply pointing out that IF it's very tiring to ride 9.5 hours in a middle seat in coach, and after the flight you're not calling in fatigued, then our union leaders have nothing to work with.

Here's how a union/management meeting would go on the subject right now:

Union: The coach airline policy for int'l airlining needs to be changed back to what it used to be. Our pilots don't like it.

Management: We really don't care if they like it or not. It saves money. Is there an operational problem with it?

Union: It's very tiring to ride almost 10 hours in coach, which means we've got tired pilots behind the controls.

Management: Do we? Here are the records of the past 500 int'l flights of up to 10 hours for pilots going to work. Only 2 pilots have called in fatigued after those airlines. Doesn't look to us like there's any real problem with it.

See how that works? And honestly, if you really feel fine after a long airline in coach, enough so to go fly, then there really is no issue there. We have no reason to even want to address it until section 6 negotiations.

You can claim "the union" hasn't made it a priority to fix the airline policy, but you need to realize "the union" isn't our leadership. They only represent the union, which is every active (and inactive) member on our seniority list. You want "the union" to make a change? Then do something (other than simply proclaiming you dislike something) to help bring about that change. THAT is one of the major points that some folks are missing about the upcoming picket: while our leadership is doing everything within their power to fix the 401k thing, it's going to take action from the membership to bring about change, or at least, more expeditious change.

All the talk in the world didn't bring about our contract in '05. It was the action taken by the membership! Even if you thought we were wrong back then, you still have to admit that it got the job done.

 

[G4dude]

You're wrong.

It IS something the union is interested in fixing. And now you can see why having a CBA is very important. The coach vs. business/first class seating is NOT in the CBA anywhere. How, exactly, do we fix something that is strictly company policy? We have no minor dispute process to fall back on with this. Should we simply ask the company to make the change? Yeah, they've been so willing to engage us on ANYTHING thus far.

Well, there is one way we could fix it before the next round of section 6 (you're right, it could be quite a while if we wait for that). Give your leadership some leverage. How do you do that? Easy, ask yourself this question: How many times, after a long airline in coach, have you called in fatigued? THAT is the leverage that will allow our union leaders to precipitate a change in this airline policy.

Now, we have one of the best fatigue policies around, and I am NOT advocating abusing it to get our way with the airline policy. I'm simply pointing out that IF it's very tiring to ride 9.5 hours in a middle seat in coach, and after the flight you're not calling in fatigued, then our union leaders have nothing to work with.

Here's how a union/management meeting would go on the subject right now:

Union: The coach airline policy for int'l airlining needs to be changed back to what it used to be. Our pilots don't like it.

Management: We really don't care if they like it or not. It saves money. Is there an operational problem with it?

Union: It's very tiring to ride almost 10 hours in coach, which means we've got tired pilots behind the controls.

Management: Do we? Here are the records of the past 500 int'l flights of up to 10 hours for pilots going to work. Only 2 pilots have called in fatigued after those airlines. Doesn't look to us like there's any real problem with it.

See how that works? And honestly, if you really feel fine after a long airline in coach, enough so to go fly, then there really is no issue there. We have no reason to even want to address it until section 6 negotiations.

You can claim "the union" hasn't made it a priority to fix the airline policy, but you need to realize "the union" isn't our leadership. They only represent the union, which is every active (and inactive) member on our seniority list. You want "the union" to make a change? Then do something (other than simply proclaiming you dislike something) to help bring about that change. THAT is one of the major points that some folks are missing about the upcoming picket: while our leadership is doing everything within their power to fix the 401k thing, it's going to take action from the membership to bring about change, or at least, more expeditious change.

All the talk in the world didn't bring about our contract in '05. It was the action taken by the membership! Even if you thought we were wrong back then, you still have to admit that it got the job done.

In my humble opinion, the cost of biz class is too much. I would rather put up with coach, as much as it pains me to say it. We are talking 1200 dollars versus 4800 or more per ticket. Your idea would certainly work, tactically. I am just afraid the results would drive up NJAs costs prohibitively.

 

[Semore Butts]

I am just afraid the results would drive up NJAs costs prohibitively.

G4 Dude:
In my humble opinion, the cost of biz class is too much. I would rather put up with coach, as much as it pains me to say it. We are talking 1200 dollars versus 4800 or more per ticket. Your idea would certainly work, tactically. I am just afraid the results would drive up NJAs costs prohibitively.


Well then, hush up and quite blaming the union for it.

Sounds like you've chosen.

 

[OPECJet]

What happened to any flight going through more than 5 times zones being booked in business? Was that FOM or CBA?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gut, we haven't had a contract negotiation since the integration. Prior to that, it wasn't a significant issue for NJA because we did very little long-haul airlining. Now it is an issue that affects our group, and knowing this union as I do, I'd be very surprised if airline standards, and other QOL issues, weren't on the table next round. Even the 10-hour thing is totally arbitrary, which is why we need a policy in the contract.

I know. That's why it will be 5-6 years or longer before it is addressed.

 

[G4dude]

What happened to any flight going through more than 5 times zones being booked in business? Was that FOM or CBA?

FOM, as I remember.

 

[G4dude]

G4 Dude:
In my humble opinion, the cost of biz class is too much. I would rather put up with coach, as much as it pains me to say it. We are talking 1200 dollars versus 4800 or more per ticket. Your idea would certainly work, tactically. I am just afraid the results would drive up NJAs costs prohibitively.


Well then, hush up and quite blaming the union for it.

Sounds like you've chosen.

Blame the union for what?

 

[imacdog]

The company could have the G crews sleeping in the plane during their overnights and G4 would be all for the cost savings.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The company could have the G crews sleeping in the plane during their overnights and G4 would be all for the cost savings.

A crew actually had to do that once when the Immigration officials from a certain South American country that likes to prosecute pilots wouldn't let the FA off the airport property until departure the next day. Seems she didn't have the proper visa.