NJA App Flight Time Worksheet

[milflyboy]

On the NJA App Flight Time Worksheet there is a note saying: Dual time should not be duplicated in PIC or other columns.

Does other columns also include Total Time?

 

[NJAPLT]

I think the note is talking about the practice of putting both PIC (once rated) and Dual instruction received down for the same flight, for example during instrument training. NetJets wants the PIC time to not include dual instruction received, if I remember correctly.

I see from your profile it looks like you have mostly military time, I think that military logbooks already separate them out, someone who is familiar with military flight logs could confirm it.

Oh, and I believe several applications allow you to add a correction factor due to civil logbook time being from block out to block in and military logbooks being time off to time on. I don't remember what netjets says, since I only have civil time.

 

[tankerswede]

Military Time

Take this with a grain of salt, it's worth what you're paying for it:

Assuming you have little to no civil time (other than something like IFT/T-41/T-3 which is not tracked in AFORMS) then your Flight Records RIP will show your unrated UPT time as Student, what would be loosely analogous to dual received in Part 61 terms. The USAF doesn't do the PIC/SIC thing so much, so even solo time in the Tweet and T-38 counts as Student. I don't recall if it counts in your total time on the RIP, but some basic math should clear it up.

NetJets allows a 1.2 conversion factor to allow for the AF way vs. the FAA way (T/O to touchdown plus five minutes vs. block time). I think that information appears in the instructions someplace. I have about 1/3 civil and 2/3 military time and adding them up put me well above their mins so I didn't convert anything and it kept the math much easier when trying to manipulate the numbers to fill out "The Matrix".

Where it might apply to you in the F-16 is in IFF if you're rated and have a Form 8 in the T-38 but you're not the PIC, the IP is, so you count that as dual. Probably the same way in the family model Viper. Any solo or single seat time, once rated, is PIC by pretty much any definition you care to use.

To make a short explanation long, based on your original question your student time counts toward total but don't double-dip your student solos as PIC unless you subtract them out of your student time (at which point it is no longer a double-dip anyway). That's what they mean by not duplicating the time - you only get to count it once and if it's between dual and Part 61 PIC, it's dual.

If you have any appreciable amount of civil time it is further complicated but unless that applies to you it's really not worth posting here.

Hope this helps,

Swede

 

[milflyboy]

...
To make a short explanation long, based on your original question your student time counts toward total but don't double-dip your student solos as PIC unless you subtract them out of your student time (at which point it is no longer a double-dip anyway). That's what they mean by not duplicating the time - you only get to count it once and if it's between dual and Part 61 PIC, it's dual.
...
Hope this helps,

Swede

Thanks. That is what I was looking for. I have plenty of jet PIC- I was just wondering if my "Dual time" could count towards the total.
I fly for a European Air Force and we have a lot of time after being rated were we share the family model ;o) According to FAR 61.51 I can log this time as PIC as long as I am the one operating the controls. I don't necessarily have to sign for the aircraft like I would according to Part 1 PIC.

I have 2800 total time divided into 2450 Part 61.51 PIC and 350 Dual.

If only logging according to Part 1 I have 2100 PIC.
Dual time in my book is only time where I am receiving instruction, so if I only consider Part 1 PIC and Dual time I only have 2450 Total, even though I have 350 extra hours where I acted as PIC (61.51)

The worksheet says to use FAR 61.51 as guidance, so I guess I can log 2800 total right?

 

[tankerswede]

Thanks. That is what I was looking for. I have plenty of jet PIC- I was just wondering if my "Dual time" could count towards the total.
I fly for a European Air Force and we have a lot of time after being rated were we share the family model ;o) According to FAR 61.51 I can log this time as PIC as long as I am the one operating the controls. I don't necessarily have to sign for the aircraft like I would according to Part 1 PIC.

I have 2800 total time divided into 2450 Part 61.51 PIC and 350 Dual.

If only logging according to Part 1 I have 2100 PIC.
Dual time in my book is only time where I am receiving instruction, so if I only consider Part 1 PIC and Dual time I only have 2450 Total, even though I have 350 extra hours where I acted as PIC (61.51)

The worksheet says to use FAR 61.51 as guidance, so I guess I can log 2800 total right?

OK, I think I see better now what you're saying. Based on Part 61 definitions, all of your 2100 is certainly PIC, your 350 student/dual is definitely dual, and the other 350 is PIC by Part 61 but not by Part 1. They say use Part 61, so call it PIC.

What they are trying to avoid, I think, is for you to call that 350 hours both dual AND PIC, thereby making your total time 3150 because you count it in two different categories which are then added together. I think you have the right idea.

Good luck!

 

[bmxandjets]

hey tankerswede, just curious on that 1.2 military conversion for AF guys... do you take your time and multiply it by 1.2? maybe i overlooked it, but i filled out the application and didn't find any references about it. i've seen other places that accept an additional .3 added for each sortie, but this 1.2 seems different than that. if so, i have 2500 TT with the 1.2 conversion, if not, i'm still 150 short or so.. thanks

 

[tankerswede]

hey tankerswede, just curious on that 1.2 military conversion for AF guys... do you take your time and multiply it by 1.2? maybe i overlooked it, but i filled out the application and didn't find any references about it. i've seen other places that accept an additional .3 added for each sortie, but this 1.2 seems different than that. if so, i have 2500 TT with the 1.2 conversion, if not, i'm still 150 short or so.. thanks

Different places handle it differently - some give you a 0.2 per sortie (which was great with my Tweet time - lots of sorties for the amount of time logged) but with NetJets it's the 1.2 multiplier.

The only place I've found it written is on a sheet that came with my application package back in Oct/Nov. It is a sheet with the heading "Pilot Requirements for Applying at NetJets Aviation." It says under the first bullet "2,500 hours total pilot time. This does not include flight engineer or simulator time. (Military may use a 1.2 conversion - Total aircraft time * 1.2)".

It would only make sense that your PIC, SIC, IP, etc. would be multiplied by 1.2 as well or you'd end up with more total than your times added together. I don't think that's the intent, but then again the only guidance I've found is what I quoted above.

Hope this helps,

Swede

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Help me Obi Wan...

I just want to make sure I understand this...

It IS legal under Part 61 to log a flight as both Dual Received AND as PIC IF you are appropriately licensed and rated for the flight...

However, NetJets wants you to separate them.

Do I understand this correctly?

 

[NCherches]

Correct... If you are qualified in the aircraft and you are recieving instruction (BFR's, Aircraft Checkouts, even training to a new rating sometimes) Can be logged per part 61 as PIC and Dual Recieved...

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Thankyou

That is what I thought...it just seems strange on NetJets flight time worksheet to have to separate it out. One more hoop to jump through.