New pilots learning on glass cockpits

[Flysher]

I was in a conversation with an airnet instructor yesterday and we got to talking about how all of the flight schools are switching to glass only trainers now or in the near future. The topic of discussion was about what are these pilots going to do when they go for a job where they have to fly conventional gauges?

For example, lets say a pilot learns to fly at a Cessna pilot center and does all of his/her training on a glass cockpit. Later this person becomes a CFI at the same school and continues teaching on the glass. Then this particular individual comes to Airnet for example or somewhere that uses round dials. Now this person may have a small amount of exposure to old cockpits from sims/books/limited experience etc... but will it be enough to make it through a rigorous IFR training program?

We both thought that its going to become a problem and he was saying that they arent quite sure how they are going to handle it if pilots come in and cant maintain a basic scan on a 6 pack. Also the new level of automation that makes certain things easier not to mention the big map showing you where you are, making old methods of maintaining SA a lost skill.

I am just curious as to everyone elses thoughts on this approaching "problem" as one may call it.

 

[navigator72]

I think pilot's who learn on all glass are going to find themselves screwed if the power ever goes out on their glass panels.

 

[mtrv]

I think pilot's who learn on all glass are going to find themselves screwed if the power ever goes out on their glass panels.

With glass panels such as Avidyne and the Garmin 1000, you've still got backup round gauges. In most cases, the backups are now totally electric, doing away with the vacuum pump.

Most planes are equipped with dual alternators, using dual elec. busses, or at least backup batteries. Some aircraft use the now vacant vacuum accessory pad for a smaller backup alternator. And if worse goes to worse, then take along a hand-held GPS.

With on-going tests on this subject, new flight students have had an edge in getting their IFR rating. They start, by getting a bit of IFR navigation on day one, thanks to these panels.

 

[ReportCanoa]

With glass panels such as Avidyne and the Garmin 1000, you've still got backup round gauges. In most cases, the backups are now totally electric, doing away with the vacuum pump.

Most planes are equipped with dual alternators, using dual elec. busses, or at least backup batteries. Some aircraft use the now vacant vacuum accessory pad for a smaller backup alternator. And if worse goes to worse, then take along a hand-held GPS.

With on-going tests on this subject, new flight students have had an edge in getting their IFR rating. They start, by getting a bit of IFR navigation on day one, thanks to these panels.

Ridiculous theory.

If you don't have scan skills with the round-dials, you're gonna have a hard time if you find yourself in a conventional airplane. Conversely, if you learned on 'em, you can go to glass with litte difficulty, and back with no problems.

 

[mtrv]

Ridiculous theory.

No theory, it's fact. Look it up sometime.

 

[wmuflyguy]

I think pilot's who learn on all glass are going to find themselves screwed if the power ever goes out on their glass panels.

Anyone would be screwed, what is left when the power goes out? Attitude, Altitude, Heading and Airspeed. In small airplnaes no navigation source usually(unlessyou have a handheld).

Isn't something like this covered in the revised instrument PTS? So it hsould be taught.

p.s. I learned on the dials and the transisiton to glass is pretty easy, haven't gone back though yet to see if I can fly the gauges, i'm sure I could figure it out iafter a refresher.

 

[Kream926]

And if worse goes to worse, then take along a hand-held GPS.

.

is it me or are people forgetting about pilatage and ded-wreckoning?

what do you mean worst comes to worst? lose electric power and have to force land it? whats with all the hype about GPS? i dont turn that thing on at all when im teaching primary's. they ask to use it on XC's and i say no

 

[PA28Dakota]

Fact of the matter is, while glass maybe cool to look at and play with, it doesn't make up for learning to fly the old fashioned way...stick, rudder, needle, ball, and airspeed. There is just no substitute! I've messed around with the G1000 and its an incredible piece of equipment but I agree that its a bad idea for initial training and that we will soon see pilots who can ONLY fly glass...leading to sub par pilots IMHO.

Will

 

[TrafficInSight]

My friends all laughed at me when I said I wanted to learn NDB approaches.

 

[PA28Dakota]

Call me old school, but wanting to learn NDB approaches I think it a very good thing. You'll be one up on those guys if you can do em while they have a deer in headlights look on their faces.

Will

 

[mtrv]

Fact of the matter is, while glass maybe cool to look at and play with, it doesn't make up for learning to fly the old fashioned way...stick, rudder, needle, ball, and airspeed. There is just no substitute! I've messed around with the G1000 and its an incredible piece of equipment but I agree that its a bad idea for initial training and that we will soon see pilots who can ONLY fly glass...leading to sub par pilots IMHO.

Will

It's obvious, that some pilots here, are just jealous.
It will be just like video games, as your kids will run circles around you!

 

[stearnst]

is it me or are people forgetting about pilatage and ded-wreckoning?

what do you mean worst comes to worst? lose electric power and have to force land it? whats with all the hype about GPS? i dont turn that thing on at all when im teaching primary's. they ask to use it on XC's and i say no

Just out of curiosity, when DO you allow/introduce your students to utilize the GPS?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

According to my instructor in my last recurrent groundschool, the current FAA plan is by 2009 to have one LOC per major airport. Those would be the ONLY ground-based navigation systems in use in the US.

That means, NO NDB, VOR, LDA, or SDF approaches, and, basically, no LOC, LOC/BC or ILS approaches either, as ATL/LAX/ORD, etc. would only have 1, to only 1 runway (I guess 2, if there was a BC).

It is good to know how to do an NDB approach, if you don't have GPS capability in your plane, but I don't see any other good reason to learn it.

I know one pilot that will turn off the IFR certified GPS and fly the airways, thus burning lots more cheap aviation fuel. Not so good for the bottom line.

cliff
YIP

PS-As a cost saving measure, and as a way to return to the "old days", before we had ICEs, Flight Instructors could turn off their airplane's engines and force their students to fly the rest of the lesson without an engine. I bet they'd learn a lot of interesting skills that way!

 

[Kream926]

Just out of curiosity, when DO you allow/introduce your students to utilize the GPS?

when they can keep me within 3 mins of the checkpoints, 2 miles on course and get me a ground speed +- 5kts then i know they know how to do it the old fashioned way. the best nav equipment are the eyes, compass and a map. im a young guy but call me old fashioned....

 

[mtrv]

the best nav equipment are the eyes, compass and a map.

And your eyes and brain are calculating your position on the map, instead of keeping an eye for traffic, terrain, obstructions, birds, etc.

With 24 GPS satellites plus spares orbiting the earth for good reason, how about using the GPS for an exact picture of your position in relation to restricted air spaces, tower obstructions, emergency airports, etc.

Then follow along with your detailed map (sectional), and what you see on the ground. This way, it's more time for eyes out the windscreen, and a much better awareness of exact position, should an emergency arise.

In this day and age, with more traffic, more restricted airspace; and the chance to get your self out of trouble, should an immediate dose of situational awareness be required, then it seems to be a bit dumb to remain old fashioned, for the sake of it, doesn't it?

And of course, with today's technology, we have the added bonus of weather patterns for hundreds of miles, as well as depictions of current TFR's, and terrain warnings that can make all the difference in darkness. Horizontal position to within about three feet, and vertical position that can better the majority of altimeters, when using WAAS.

Sticking with the old fashioned way for the sake of it, seems silly. Almost irresponsible! Like I've previously mentioned, I kept track of flight into terrain accidents for years and years. It's all about getting disorrented with only a few seconds to loose. GPS technology, can and will make a difference.

Ever seen the new 3D terrain mapping technology for IFR approaches in IMC? Would everyone just prefer to stick with the old way, when 3D is common place?

 

[PCL_128]

when they can keep me within 3 mins of the checkpoints, 2 miles on course and get me a ground speed +- 5kts then i know they know how to do it the old fashioned way. the best nav equipment are the eyes, compass and a map. im a young guy but call me old fashioned....

Amen to that! Thank God someone teaching out there still has some common sense..

 

[TrafficInSight]

And your eyes and brain are calculating your position on the map, instead of keeping an eye for traffic, terrain, obstructions, birds, etc.

Unfortunately now you're staring at the GPS display waiting for a traffic alert that never comes.