New ALPA age 60 poll

[John Pennekamp]

Did you take it yet? Could the questions be any more loaded? How about them asking the same question over and over, but worded differently (or backwards) each time?

Maybe ALPA should quit playing word games and quit trying to lead us in the direction they think we need to go. By the wording of the questions, it's blatantly obvious that they believe the current policy needs to be changed. The poll is designed to lead us to agree. I don't agree!

They need to have a membership wide poll with one question:

"YES or NO: Do you believe ALPA's current policy to oppose a change in age 60 needs to be changed?"

Then maybe the "Blue Ribbon Panel" will be able to have ONE SHRED of credibility when they tell us the membership voted to change the policy. Because right now, they won't.

Just one more rigged poll from ALPA national.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Did you take it yet? Could the questions be any more loaded? How about them asking the same question over and over, but worded differently (or backwards) each time?

Maybe ALPA should quit playing word games and quit trying to lead us in the direction they think we need to go. By the wording of the questions, it's blatantly obvious that they believe the current policy needs to be changed. The poll is designed to lead us to agree. I don't agree!

They need to have a membership wide poll with one question:

"YES or NO: Do you believe ALPA's current policy to oppose a change in age 60 needs to be changed?"

Then maybe the "Blue Ribbon Panel" will be able to have ONE SHRED of credibility when they tell us the membership voted to change the policy. Because right now, they won't.

Just one more rigged poll from ALPA national.

Such a sceptic you've become.......

 

[mynameisjim]

I tried getting on the website and it gave an error message. Maybe the computer they're using is too old, and should be replaced by a younger model.

 

[Melfly]

I couldn't get on either... they probably decided to block all memberships #'s from young regional pilots.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Did you take it yet? Could the questions be any more loaded? How about them asking the same question over and over, but worded differently (or backwards) each time?

Maybe ALPA should quit playing word games and quit trying to lead us in the direction they think we need to go. By the wording of the questions, it's blatantly obvious that they believe the current policy needs to be changed. The poll is designed to lead us to agree. I don't agree!

They need to have a membership wide poll with one question:

"YES or NO: Do you believe ALPA's current policy to oppose a change in age 60 needs to be changed?"

Then maybe the "Blue Ribbon Panel" will be able to have ONE SHRED of credibility when they tell us the membership voted to change the policy. Because right now, they won't.

Just one more rigged poll from ALPA national.

The Blue Ribbon Panel has absolutely nothing to do with ALPA's policy on whether or not to support Age 60.

The questions aren't loaded. They are asked several different ways, just as all surveys ask certain questions in different ways.

ALPA has no predisposed opinion on this issue one way or the other - ALPA only wants to learn what the current viewpoint is by the membership.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I couldn't get on either... they probably decided to block all memberships #'s from young regional pilots.

Wrong - there is a serious technical issue and that will hopefully be fixed by mid-day tomorrow.

-Neal (aka former young regional pilot turned young "legacy" pilot)

 

[John Pennekamp]

The Blue Ribbon Panel has absolutely nothing to do with ALPA's policy on whether or not to support Age 60.

The questions aren't loaded. They are asked several different ways, just as all surveys ask certain questions in different ways.

ALPA has no predisposed opinion on this issue one way or the other - ALPA only wants to learn what the current viewpoint is by the membership.

-Neal

Then apparently you haven't been reading the magazine and lisening to the officers. Several high ranking ALPA members have paraded around saying the same message. Hell, I'll quote Prater: "Age 60 may happen regardless of our opposition. Our interests may be best served by taking part in the rulemaking process instead of opposing the change". That was sometime in January at his ATL roadshow.

Half the questions in the poll stated the question that way. Also, ALPA politicos know they're in a lose-lose situation with this one because the issue almost splits our membership in half. No matter what hapens, 50% of the members will be pissed. ALPA is all about self-survivorship. They hate making unpopular choices and facing decertification drives or failed unionization drives. They would much rather convince us now that it's in our best interests so that when it comes we don't hate them for agreeing to it.

Yes, Alpa has a predisposed opinion, and they wish we shared it with them.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Such a sceptic you've become.......

I've always been a skeptic. I just used to ask my challenging questions behind closed doors. I don't have that option any more.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Also, ALPA politicos know they're in a lose-lose situation with this one because the issue almost splits our membership in half. No matter what hapens, 50% of the members will be pissed. ALPA is all about self-survivorship. They hate making unpopular choices and facing decertification drives or failed unionization drives. They would much rather convince us now that it's in our best interests so that when it comes we don't hate them for agreeing to it.

Interesting.... What about locking Regional Pilots out of scope negotiations for all of these years? A policy which objectively, demonstratively, has been bad for 100% of ALPA's membership.

ALPA does what ever the senior, mainline, 10%, want to do and the rest of the membership be dammed. ALPA will make nice statements and invite the opposition to meetings, but that is as far as ALPA's form of democracy allows.

You have exposed the weak underbelly of the union. That ALPA fails to bring their membership together and represent the best interests of all their members.

If I had 5 wishes, somewhere after World Peace and before a million bucks tax free, I would ask for a ALPA with a representative structure that included a system of checks and balances on power. A system which allowed all members to participate and minorities to win, IF, their circumstances found merit under the Constitution and ByLaws.

In this case, the senior 10% of the union wants those 60.0001 year olds to get out of their way so they can get their last grab at a pre-deregulation type lifestyle by enjoying top pay rates and good schedules as long as they can. To heck if it is bad for all those behind them, bad for their Company and possibly bad for safety.

Let me repost something that came in the mail from my father who rode it through 7 furloughs, 3 failed airlines and retired from a major:

I had a bad dream last night.

In it was the FAA, crew scheduling, bad schedules, bad management, self-serving union, unserviceable aircraft equipment, changing weather, no extra holding fuel, ever-changing procedures, endless flight manual revisions, dead heading in the middle seat, broken luggage, lost luggage, nasty passenger agents, crabby Old 170 lb. flight attendants that were axe-handle wide, all-nighters, foreign countries, sleep deprivation, mergers, seniority squabbles, company threats, food poisoning, no food, bad coffee, bidding, pulled away from my family for weeks at a time, fleabag hotels, late cabs and maniac cab drivers, bidding vacation, waiting for gates, weather, low visibility approaches, aircraft de-icing, PCs, Gestapo ch eck airman, medicals, commuting to and from work in unspeakable weather, the parking lot from Hell, parking lo t buses, inter-terminal busses, spring break, Christmas rush, Easter rush, PA announcements, insurance, drug and alcohol testing, noise violations, customs lineups, dry cleaning, terrorism, security passes, rude security personnel, high gas/oil prices, pay cuts, rush hour traffic, that infernal alarm clock, crash pads, catching cold away from home, lackadaisical crew members, sexual harassment threats, flight attendants and co-pilots implying that they are a gift to aviation after being there three years, back biting, gossip, cell phones, aircraft cram courses, plus laying my job on the line several times a year with simulators, endless procedural memorization and Annual Recurrent Training days.

Then I woke up and joyously found myself still alive and retired!

 

[WildBlue]

The ALPA leadership believes that change is coming whether we like it or not. The stated purpose of all this is so have a voice on how the change occurs, if it occurs. The fact that the FAA is putting out an NPRM is very, very significant.

The union conducted a poll of the membership and found about a 60-40 split. Under the majority rules concept, the position of the union has not changed.

There is a very significant minority within ALPA pilot ranks that believes the age limit should change. A larger majority wants to leave it alone. No matter what the leadership does, there will be a very large group of pilots who will be pissed off.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Interesting.... What about locking Regional Pilots out of scope negotiations for all of these years? A policy which objectively, demonstratively, has been bad for 100% of ALPA's membership.

ALPA does what ever the senior, mainline, 10%, want to do and the rest of the membership be dammed. ALPA will make nice statements and invite the opposition to meetings, but that is as far as ALPA's form of democracy allows.

You have exposed the weak underbelly of the union. That ALPA fails to bring their membership together and represent the best interests of all their members.

If I had 5 wishes, somewhere after World Peace and before a million bucks tax free, I would ask for a ALPA with a representative structure that included a system of checks and balances on power. A system which allowed all members to participate and minorities to win, IF, their circumstances found merit under the Constitution and ByLaws.

In this case, the senior 10% of the union wants those 60.0001 year olds to get out of their way so they can get their last grab at a pre-deregulation type lifestyle by enjoying top pay rates and good schedules as long as they can. To heck if it is bad for all those behind them, bad for their Company and possibly bad for safety.

Let me repost something that came in the mail from my father who rode it through 7 furloughs, 3 failed airlines and retired from a major:

Fins, this FAA NPRM is really the best thing that could happen for the 10% you mention. It gives them a convenient reason to hijack the rest of the union... as usual.

The regional pilots almost universally oppose an increase, because we have the most to lose. If/when it goes through, mainline hiring will stop for 5 years and we will stagnate in current seat and equipment. We are presently 45% of Alpa membership. Joining the regional pilots are the junior to mid seniority mainline pilots waiting for upgrade or hoping to move on to bigger equipment and better pay. They too will stagnate.

The senior mainline pilots just lost their pensions and want to work the extra 5 years at top pay rates to pad their PBGC benefits. They own the reps on the EC, and also the Blue Ribbon Panel. They will be the ones to guide Alpa's policy because they have the most money. In any political organization money=influence.

The FAA is jumping on the international bandwagon because of peer presure from other ICAO members, and an administration that had looked the other way on aviation issues during its entire reign. This misguided populist move will do nothing to enhance safety. It may enhance quality of life for the top 20% of pilots, the rest will see a decrease.

Yet instead of following the guicance we gave our union last October in the last age 60 poll, and vigorously opposing the change, as we instructed them, they'd rather roll over, insist they can't fight it, and tell us it's best to join in and influence the final rule. Why? You hit it on the head.

The top 10% have the most to gain, the most money, and the most political influence in the union. Alpa is not a democracy, and as long as it lacks equal representation of all members, it never will be. This will be one more windfall for the top 10% forced upon the rest of us, with not even a whimper from our union.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Which is how the 10% works. Say nice things, say the union's position is this, while working to make the reality something else.

 

[WildBlue]

The regional pilots almost universally oppose an increase, because we have the most to lose.

John: I don't think this is exactly correct. As I recall the polling data, regional pilots were just as torn as mainline pilots, roughly 60-40. Granted, it has been a while since I looked at it, but there was a slightly higher percentage of pilots over 50 who favored the change, and a higher percentage of First Officers who favored no change. I don't recall there being a significant difference in regional numbers than those for ALPA pilots in general.

One thing about that poll that was universally believed: both sides believed the poll was skewed in favor of the opposition.

 

[BoilerUP]

Just completed the poll; had no problem logging in using my ALPA number and the password in the email.

 

[Freight Dog]

Interesting.... What about locking Regional Pilots out of scope negotiations for all of these years? A policy which objectively, demonstratively, has been bad for 100% of ALPA's membership.

Fins, why should a regional pilot be present in scope negotiations of another pilot group with their company?

Regional pilots are contractors hired to do the flying under their mainline partners' code.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there should be this division attached to regional/mainline. I agree with you that mainline fleet composition should consist of everything from 40 seat EMB-135 to B-777.

But under the current situation, you have no business being in any other pilot group's scope negotiation. Your career potential is not of any concern to a mainline pilot group that's negotiating their scope clause. That's like me and my wife discussing contractor's career and earnings potential while deciding whether to use them to remodel our house.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Frieght Dog - Look at what has happened. ASA and Comair performed Delta's flying. We asked for a merger when our airlines were acquired by Delta. There was fleet overlap and even agreements to hold seniority at both Delta and the Connection Carrier simulataneously (Bid Restricted Second Officer SLOA). D-ALPA pushed for the removal of "operational integration" from ALPA's Constitutional Meger and Frag policy and destroyed the one list request.

Then the Delta pilots negotiated relaxed scope in exchange for compensation and bargaining credits. This relaxed scope was in concert with management's desire to hold requests for bidding. To help management get the cost saving it wanted the DL pilots even negotiated rates on phantom airplanes that it had not intention of operating to suppress the pay rates at the connection carriers.

So, flying which had been performed by ALPA members in the service of Delta Air Lines was put out for bid. Now there are seven DCI carriers and Comair and ASA are substantially weakened.

Now consider - I had a very nice 69 327 ss Camaro in high school. I sold that car for around $7,000. I want that car back, but it no longer belongs to me because I sold it. The new owner can do with that car what he pleases.

The Delta pilots sold their scope. They got something of value in return. The flying is gone. Just a tad under half of all Delta flying is now performed by alter ego contractors. Now does it make any difference to a Delta pilot whether ASA, or Comair, or Shuttle America, or SkyWest, or Mesa, or Freedom, or Republic, or Chautauqua does that flying? No.

But it makes a huge difference to ALPA's membership. In order to recapture their flying Delta's pilots will have to meet a bar that is anchored in place by Mesa's and Shuttle's new hire rates. US Air pilots are finding a mainline recall into an E190 right seat is just not worth it for $38 an hour - but that is where the bar is set in this Request for Proposal free for all that thinking like yours has enabled.

In my view, pilots should be able to scope their flying within the brand. When issues of their wages and work conditions are being negotiated they have the right and ALPA has the obligation to provide them a seat at the table.

And if the airline is not represented by ALPA, maybe they would want to be - if ALPA would represent all of its pilots equally.