New 135 Duty and Rest Requirements

[Cpt Splash]

Anybody have any information and guidance on this New 135 reg. concerning Duty and rest requirements? There are rumors going around that FAA is requiring 2.5 pilots per airplane and that all 135 are going to have to start providing everybody with schedules.

 

[mike1mc]

Here is a link to the presentation given at the NBAA convention:
http://web.nbaa.org/member/cs/amc/2005/presentations/20051111_rest.ppt

 

[scubabri]

I'm all for a better schedule, but if this goes into play, a lot of people will have better schedules.. sitting at home on the couch because the op went out of business.

sb

 

[LJDRVR]

Anybody that goes out of business over this was probably going to anyway. With new rules in effect, the playing field will be level. (In a sense that everybody will have to comply.)

Honestly, it's about time the govrenment took more of an interest in tightening oversight in the 135 arena. Many of these operators are marginally safe at best. For some reason the fuzz knowingly chooses to ignore it.

 

[h25b]

Could someone please just post the proposed changes, for some reason my access codes to the NBAA site isn't working...

 

[johnny taliban]

H25B,

try www.aams.org-flightduty.pdf

 

[h25b]

H25B,

try www.aams.org-flightduty.pdf

Linky no worky...

 

[FlyingMoose]

Anybody that goes out of business over this was probably going to anyway. With new rules in effect, the playing field will be level. (In a sense that everybody will have to comply.)

Honestly, it's about time the govrenment took more of an interest in tightening oversight in the 135 arena. Many of these operators are marginally safe at best. For some reason the fuzz knowingly chooses to ignore it.

I would add that anyone that goes out of business over this SHOULD be out of business.

In my opinion, this isn't a change of the rules, it is a rewording existing rules due to the long "tradition" of abuse by many operators, inspectors, and unfortunately many pilots whom either can't or chose not to understand and comply with the FAR's as written.

I have always been baffled at the ignorant interpretations that some operators and even inspectors derive in the face of the current regulations, numerous legal and chief counsel opinions, official notices, etc. Of course many knowingly violate the reg's and try to justify it by claiming they must to be competitive.....if so, then back to my first statement.

My concern is as usual, will they ever actually adopt this in a timely manner or will this be typical FAA bureaucracy. Then when they do, it will still require COMPETENT and DILIGENT ENFORCEMENT, which is the real issue!

 

[LJDRVR]

I would add that anyone that goes out of business over this SHOULD be out of business.

In my opinion, this isn't a change of the rules, it is a rewording existing rules due to the long "tradition" of abuse by many operators, inspectors, and unfortunately many pilots whom either can't or chose not to understand and comply with the FAR's as written.

I have always been baffled at the ignorant interpretations that some operators and even inspectors derive in the face of the current regulations, numerous legal and chief counsel opinions, official notices, etc. Of course many knowingly violate the reg's and try to justify it by claiming they must to be competitive.....if so, then back to my first statement.

My concern is as usual, will they ever actually adopt this in a timely manner or will this be typical FAA bureaucracy. Then when they do, it will still require COMPETENT and DILIGENT ENFORCEMENT, which is the real issue!

Amen, Brother.

The average 135 operator puts their pilots through an abbreviated indoc, glossing over those rules that could potentially cost the operator lost charter revenue. Most pilots are lazy, 135 folks are no different. If they have a question concerning a regulation, they will ask a peer for interpretation, or even worse, their employer. Pilots have heard old wives tales concerning how a particular reg works, and are more than happy to pass along the heresay. Ask a CP or a DO, and more often you'll get an answer along the lines of: "Our POI says it's O.K. to do it this way." Or they'll just lie to you.

You guys and gals flying 135 put your certificates jeopardy on a regular basis, all for no particular good reason. Here's the way to educate yourself:

Look it up. If it's open to interpretation, research the NTSB ALJ and FAA Chief Legal Counsel rulings. Those are the only and final word conerning how a specific regulation is worded/enforced. Also look at the case history of each of the regs and see how the FAA has violated pilots in the past. You do this on a couple of basic regulations and you're certain to find several regs you've completely misunderstood.

For those of you looking for a good start, google jetlaw and summit aviation.

 

[h25b]

Anyone have some link to this or any other specific information. No offense, but it would be nice to understand exactly what we're discussiing.

What stage of implementation is this in ? I coudn't find a NPRM on the FAA site about it...

 

[pilotyip]

Ditto, neither of the posted sites were accessible to me, if there is specific info please paste on here for all to look at. We have seen nothing from the FAA on this subject other than the initial notice last year that a NPRM would be coming out. BTW LJDRVR that lost charter revenue is how pilots loose their jobs, when income is reduced, expenses have to be reduced.

 

[CloudyIFR]

Try this:

www.aams.org/flightduty.pdf

Curtis

 

[pilotyip]

Do I read that 135 can now have duty breaks just like 121? as long as they are 4 hours long. Looks like they also defined avaialble for duty. Talk about giving management more flexibility.

 

[Capn Sac]

When does this take effect?

 

[Quebec]

Anybody have any information and guidance on this New 135 reg. concerning Duty and rest requirements? There are rumors going around that FAA is requiring 2.5 pilots per airplane and that all 135 are going to have to start providing everybody with schedules.

haven't heard much, but if there is news.. we'd like to post at http://www.rsvpair.com

let me know if there is a poll we can run too... to gauge sentiment

 

[LJDRVR]

BTW LJDRVR that lost charter revenue is how pilots loose their jobs, when income is reduced, expenses have to be reduced.

Hey pilotyip,

I think you took me out of context, sir. What I said in effect was that some operators tend to ignore the parts of the regulations that adherence to costs them money. Most 135 pilots willingly allow this, and the feds for some reason provide almost no enforcement action or oversight unless there's an accident or it becomes politically correct to make an example out of a specific operator.

Some examples?

• "Good-till/good again" duty time violations under 135.267

• Routine look-back violations on rest

• Pencil-whipping training requirements to avoid the hassle/expense of things like HAZMAT, survival and recurrent INDOC.

In the year 2005, well over half of the 135 operators I come into contact with do not have initial or recurrent CRM training. I'm not talking single pilot Seneca folks either. Large flight departments operating everything up to large cabin international jets. Disgraceful.

Surely you're not saying that we should turn our cheek to any sort of procedural and regulatory adherence just so we can retain employment?
There are a lot of operators out there that abuse their employees, flaunt the rules completely, and abuse the trust of their customers. Those operations should be made to do it right. If they can't afford to business like that, then they shouldn't be in business.

Hope the Michigan winter is treating you well,

Cheers!

 

[TransMach]

New FAR 135 Flight/Rest Rules

Guys,

Before anyone gets their jockeys in a bunch, please keep in mind that the "Draft" posted on the AAMS website is the product of an industry/FAA working group making recommendations to an industry/FAA Operations Committee who, in turn, makes recommendations to an industry/FAA Steering Committee who, in turn, makes recommendations to FAA. FAA then determines what "they" want the rule to say and forwards that to their legal folks to see if some "rule language" can be developed that meets each of their needs.

Then, FAA includes that new "proposed" rule in a "Notice of Proposed Rule Making" (NPRM) to which industry, god, country and anyone else who has an interest gets to respond on the docket and the politicos get into the chain reaction.

Now, since the FAA is trying to re-write ALL of Part 135 and has to go through this mine field over every part of it, it's gonna take quite some time.

Remember, FAA tried to change the Flight Time Limits and Rest Requirements for 121 and 135 back in 1995 and got their ship shot out from under them by industry, the politicians and the unions.

While I hope to see a more clearly defined set of rules that everyone can work in and live with ... I'm not holding my breath.

TransMach

 

[Quebec]

LJDRVR good response

LJDRVR,
Your response is excellent and I am taking off my kimono a bit to admit it, since most of our good / excellent clients (at www.rsvpair.com) are Part 135 operators who moan under the strain / oversight of arbitrary FSDO enforcement.

But let's face the facts and disseminate what you say, which is that for the most part the industry is a joke when compared to "real industries." Low utilization (hurts us economically) and low adherence to standards only adds flames to the media's already warped perception of what air taxi means.

The fact is that any company that cannot afford to run their company professionally (by the so called rules that are designed for the good of all concerned) should get out asap, be turned in, or simply face the music that change is painful, but for the better.

While no Southwest Airlines exists in our industry yet, it is important to recognize what a company like that does. #1 Fly their planes a lot, #2 impeccable adherence to "culture of safety" and #3 Make money - rare combo in any flying world.

Off soapbox for now. But this rant was inspired by a carrier who contacted us since they want us to starta "whistle blowers" page for 134.5 operators and other general horse poo that the 135 industry simply doesn't need.

 

[CherryBomb]

I'd sure like to see these new rules go into effect. At my old pt135 company we only had one fatality. It was mostly due to pilot fatigue. He was getting the old, "sleep durring the day for a few days, now sleep at night for a few days". I dont know about you guys but that type of "flip-flopping" is hell on my body clock...

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

TransMach:
Here's the latest as I understand it:

The committee that was to submit their reccomended rule changes to the FAA has already been formed, met, submitted their changes to the FAA, and they were disbanded back in Jun/Jul of last year (that was the end of their 2 year period to delete -125 and rewrite -135). They already had the NPRM and took public comments twice during that period.

So, as far as I know (and I don't know the rule changing procedures very well at all), the FAA has the completed proposed rule changes.

Now what is the timeline?

I've searched the faa.gov site a bunch of times, and haven't seen anything on this for almost 1 year.

Cliff
ABY