Mountain Flying

[safepilot24]

I am teaching an FAA-sponsored WINGS seminar on mountain flying in 2 weeks for a part 61 flight school. I expect about 15-20 people ranging from private to commercial. I know the basic topics I should cover but I have 2 questions for you guys:

1.) Anybody know of a good video I can break it up with? (I think Barry Schiff marks off a runway and shows how much distance the book says versus what the airplane does in real life)

2.) Other than density altitude, meteorology, ADM, aircraft performance, personal minimums, can anyone provide some helpful topics based on their experience with mountain flying.

THANKS,
B

 

[Medivacer]

Try to turn as slow as possible in a valley.
Cross a ridge at 45 degrees to it.
Moderate turbulance can be expected with rolling clouds on one side of the ridge.

I'll try to think of more for you.

 

[safepilot24]

thanks...is flying 2000 feet above the highest peak you will cross still a good general rule of thumb? Is this because of unexpected downdrafts?

 

[RockyMnt1]

How about:

1) Optical illusions (low vis and night)
2) One way airports
3) Downdrafts at the end of a box canyon
4) Downdrafts at the approach end of Salida Co because it is on a mesa
5) Increased ground speed vs. IAS
6) No distinct horizon so must rely on instruments more
7) No VOR
8) Limited FSS
9) High altitude leaning technique prior to take off
10) Rule of thumb take off procedures
11) Non-standard patterns
12) Mountain night flying
13) Survival equipment and techniques
14) ALWAYS have an executable plan b/c/d
15) fuel planning
16) Localized wx
17) Local wx phenomenon (Leadville high)
18) Pictures of that itty bitty plane on the ground against the huge amount of mountain
19) Pilotage
20) Winds aloft
21) Power lines across valleys and runway approaches (Leadville, Co.)
22) Accident stats and reviews

I could on and on. How much mountain flying time do you have and where??? Not to be snobby, but this isn't a subject that you can read up on and present with effectiveness. Unless you have the experience, it is really difficult to convey to the audience with conviction the respect that is due the mountains.

Good Luck.

Just me .02 worth

 

[Medivacer]

That useally gives you good coverage. Useally give yourself 1000 for yourself, and 1000 for your wife at home. Also try to stick as close to the middle between two peaks or ridges, useally less turbulance there.

If your flying from A to B, and there is a valley the whole way, follow it. It will most likely add a few minutes to your trip, however it will give you lot's of leeway if the weather comes down, perhap stronger winds than forcast etc...

 

[RockyMnt1]

More Mountain Flying

Well, flying over Independence Pass at 14000 msl is a good idea, if the aircraft can make it there. Most light airplanes can't get there without the help of thermals (Know where to find those!!!), so you just do the very best that you can and stack the cards in your direction by approaching at 45 degrees.

You may or may not want to be in the valleys depending on the winds involved, By the way, which side of the valley do you want to be on??? It is a balance between the winds and the thermal heating (which changes by time of day).

Basic aerobatics is a really good idea before mountain flying.

 

[safepilot24]

No that does not sound snobby....in fact this was something I was concerned about at firs. The answer is I do have lots of high altitude training, but to tell you the truth I have not really experienced the effects of a roll cloud or flown below lenticular clouds, nor have I ever landed at a mountainous airport at night. I understand density altitude and performance considerations (e.g, higher TAS means more landing distance, etc) fairly well, but as far as pulling a chandelle out of a box canyon, or experiencing a downdraft during final to an airport on a mesa cant say that I have!

Thank you for your ideas...they were very helpful!

 

[midlifeflyer]

thanks...is flying 2000 feet above the highest peak you will cross still a good general rule of thumb? Is this because of unexpected downdrafts?

Actually, depending on the airplane, it will be 1,000-2000 above the =pass= rather than the peaks. At least around here we'd have trouble getting much utility out of a 182 if we had to cross at 16,000' when the density altitude is a lot higher!. It was nice when I was back in New England and could cross well above all the peaks even in a Tomahawk!

1000 is usually enough, with 2000 better for narrower passes with higher venturi effects. Of course, if the reported winds aloft are >25, it's usually a good idea to stay on the ground.

While the pass crossing altitude is partially for downdrafts and turbulence, it's also for visibility.

Something usually missed is the charts themselves. The )pass( symbol on the chart tells you where the entrance to the pass is, not the direction of flight, or even where you'll really want to cross. There's more than one pass where terrain means that a sharp left or right is necessary over the top, with a box canyon on the other side.

So, in part, the crossing altitude is so that you can see what's on the other side. It's also an altitude measure - if you can't see the other side, you ain't making it over!

The rule of thumb is to be at crossing altitude 3 miles before the pass and maintain the altitude 3 miles after.

If you want some decent material and a good guideline of what need to be covered, go here...


www.nw.faa.gov/ats/zdvartcc/high_mountain/

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not to be snobby, but this isn't a subject that you can read up on and present with effectiveness. Unless you have the experience, it is really difficult to convey to the audience with conviction the respect that is due the mountains.

Amen. And we have the wreckage around here to prove it.

 

[TurboS7]

How about grinding through the pass at 100feet AGL with faps out indicating about 60 kts skimming the right side so you can make a low level 180 degree turn, etc., etc, Call MAF in Redlands if you want to really learn how to mountain fly, they have some good stuff in writing.

 

[starvingcfi]

i think i read somewhere that you want to add 1000 ft of clearance per 10 kts of wind aloft. the same as a thunderstorm, right?

 

[midlifeflyer]

How about grinding through the pass at 100feet AGL with faps out indicating about 60 kts skimming the right side so you can make a low level 180 degree turn, etc., etc, Call MAF in Redlands if you want to really learn how to mountain fly, they have some good stuff in writing.

There's mountain flying and there mountain flying.

In one case, we're talking about being able to take yourself, a friend and the spouse and kids to a great location safely.

In the other, we're talking about playing with the mountain with all that means in terms of required proficiency, experience, and risk tolerance.

It's like an instrument rating. You can use it to expand your options over VFR pilots by flying mostly in "mild" IMC, or you can use it to fly NDB approaches to minimums during thunderstorms.

You need to know and understand, apply and correlate the same principles in either case, but how you apply them will be different.

 

[Chunk]

When flying in a canyon, never fly in the middle. Fly on the downwind side so if you have to 180 you'll do it into the wind.

Get "Mountain Flying Bible" by Sparky Imeson.

Chunk

 

[midlifeflyer]

When flying in a canyon, never fly in the middle. Fly on the downwind side so if you have to 180 you'll do it into the wind

...not to mention getting some ridge lift.

 

[RockyMnt1]

As I said before, mountain flying is a balancing act. While I agree that one should not be in the middle of a canyon, the decision of which side to fly on is the result of analyzing numerous factors. Yes, the downwind side usually has the lift, but there may be more lift due to solar heating on the upwind side. Depending on the circumstances, the ability to take advantage of the left turning factors of typical aircraft design may be desirable for rapidly reversing direction. So there really isn't one correct answer. It all depends on the situation.

Dangerous mountain flying situations can be encountered very rapidly and unexpectedly. Many mountain flying accident chains are very short. Some situations may require very aggresive maneuvering by the pilot to get out of the predicament. Other situations require pilot patience and a gentle control touch.

 

[spitfire1940]

mountains

I flew a Super Cub from Maryland to Montanna last summer. Watched Sparky Imeson's video before leaving and took a lesson with a very good instructor in Kalispell.

I recommend that you take a few lessons with a very good instructor before you teach your class. As said above, there is a LOT to mountain flying. I just scratched the suface, and played it real safe with weather while Iwas out there.

You should definitely know the box-canyon 180-degree turn. It's probably impressive in any light plane, but I could pivot the Super Cub into a 180 in less than two wingspans.

It's a critical manuever if you fly into a box canyon (especially if you're flying up the middle of it .... dumb, dumb, dumb) and can't outclimb the wall ....

Slow down to landing speed speed, full flaps, then jam in full power while you do a full aileron and rudder deflection in the desired direction while pulling the stick into your stomach. We did this several times for practice--it's cool.

Couple weeks before I got to Montanna, some dudes from California flew a Bonanza into a mountainside cuz they didn't know that maneuver (or didn't see the wall).

Good luck.

 

[RockyMnt1]

Box Canyons

There are actually 3 variations of course reversals (or box canyon technique) that I teach depending on how drastic the situation is.

1) From cruise speed drop flaps 1 notch and do a Chandelle. Produces a medium turn raduis.

2) From Cruise speed trade airspeed for altitude. This is a modified wing over. You are close to a stall at the top and doing a turn (your airspeed is slow and the bank angle is large, so watch yourself). Practice this with a competent instructor first!!!This maneuver can produce a very tight turn radius.

3) Regular chandelle. The largest turn raduis of the three.

 

[TurboS7]

I would disagree with the technique. That will not work if you are down to a few hundred feet AGL with a cloud ceiling just above. If you made a turn into a box canyon it was not due to stupidity but usually low weather. 20 degree flaps,enter at 80kts, max power, 60 degree bank and roll it around with no increase or decrease in altitude.

 

[RockyMnt1]

Again, everything is a balance. Where did the ceiling constraint come from?? I am not going to address every conceivable possibility.

With a narrow canyon, your technique may not be possible due to the turn radius and it really doesn't matter your height above the ground when these techniques are commenced if they are done correctly.

I also disagree about the wx vs. stupidity comparison. The 14 pieces of aircraft aluminum in the canyon just south of the independence pass canyon were most likely loss of situation awareness not wx.

I guess then that we'll agree to disagree.

 

[TurboS7]

Also you ALWAYS want to be in a position that you can see the terrain in front of you at all times. If you have to chandelle then you have let things go way too far.