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Military pilots in fire fighting
- Thread starter Huggyu2
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414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
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You can go fly seasonal air attack for USFS or BLM contractors, like most everyone else does, thats the main way into the better fire jobs.
Its difficult for anyone to break into it. Very few openings at all, and you already have a lot of people with years if not decades of experience, who have lost their jobs and are try to get back in. Being Mil isnt going to help you break into it, and someone who has been doing summers as an air attack pilot or groundpounder, is going to have an advantage over you for an airtanker copilot or contract smokejumper pilot job.
Not many mil pilots are willing to go spend summers flying twin commanders or cessna mixmasters around, or even that have piston twin experience. If you had a P-3 type, that would help in getting on with Aero Union possibly.
USFS/BLM will take someone with mil experience, over fire experience for what little to nonexistent openings they have, just because the hiring rating scale works that way. But then due to 1/4 the airtankers being around as their used to be, guess what, less lead planes needed.
CDF - well you have at least 800 applicants who are already in line ahead of you with resumes, many of whom have fire experience on the air, on the ground, or both. People with fire experience are way ahead of you in knowledge of the fire environmental and what goes on.
You can also thank Tony Kern, ex USAF B-1B instructor, who took a lateral transfer into USFS head of Aviation, helped take a wrecking ball to aerial firefighting program , then bailed to other stuff the next year
If you do get an interview for a job you want, the person who interviews you will probably not be military. Feel free to discuss how your mil experience shows you are trainable and can learn specialized types of flying. However do not act like your mil experience means you should get preference over someone who had been working hard and spending summers orbiting over fires every day, because that will go over like a lead balloon
Another thing, is that you could spend all fire season with the same people, so you want to come across as someone who people can be around and get along with. I know of someone who managed to get a CDF interview with no fire experience, and pretty much came across like someone hard to be around, and didnt get hired.
Its difficult for anyone to break into it. Very few openings at all, and you already have a lot of people with years if not decades of experience, who have lost their jobs and are try to get back in. Being Mil isnt going to help you break into it, and someone who has been doing summers as an air attack pilot or groundpounder, is going to have an advantage over you for an airtanker copilot or contract smokejumper pilot job.
Not many mil pilots are willing to go spend summers flying twin commanders or cessna mixmasters around, or even that have piston twin experience. If you had a P-3 type, that would help in getting on with Aero Union possibly.
USFS/BLM will take someone with mil experience, over fire experience for what little to nonexistent openings they have, just because the hiring rating scale works that way. But then due to 1/4 the airtankers being around as their used to be, guess what, less lead planes needed.
CDF - well you have at least 800 applicants who are already in line ahead of you with resumes, many of whom have fire experience on the air, on the ground, or both. People with fire experience are way ahead of you in knowledge of the fire environmental and what goes on.
You can also thank Tony Kern, ex USAF B-1B instructor, who took a lateral transfer into USFS head of Aviation, helped take a wrecking ball to aerial firefighting program , then bailed to other stuff the next year
If you do get an interview for a job you want, the person who interviews you will probably not be military. Feel free to discuss how your mil experience shows you are trainable and can learn specialized types of flying. However do not act like your mil experience means you should get preference over someone who had been working hard and spending summers orbiting over fires every day, because that will go over like a lead balloon
Another thing, is that you could spend all fire season with the same people, so you want to come across as someone who people can be around and get along with. I know of someone who managed to get a CDF interview with no fire experience, and pretty much came across like someone hard to be around, and didnt get hired.
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He's the guy that did all the CRM junk, isn't he? Sounds like he sure cashed in on that.
He was a military guy? If so, did he project an "I'm a military guy" image, and kill is chances that way?
Great post. Thanks for the perspective.
414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2002
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No, the person who who got the interview but didnt get hired, wasnt mil. Once I met that person, I could exactly see why he didnt get the job, not exactly someone I would want to spend time around all fire season.
I am not CDF, been trying for a number of years. A hard nut to crack now, at one time it wasnt.
There are some companies that fly contractor jumpplanes, and there are a small number of jobs there. Some of those will even hire into left seat occasionally.
One area of firefighting where they are lots of ex-mil pilots is in helicopters.
I am not CDF, been trying for a number of years. A hard nut to crack now, at one time it wasnt.
There are some companies that fly contractor jumpplanes, and there are a small number of jobs there. Some of those will even hire into left seat occasionally.
One area of firefighting where they are lots of ex-mil pilots is in helicopters.
I flew large air tankers for a company founded by military pilots, and managed by military pilots...including the owner, president, chief pilot, etc. They were quite adamant that they wouldn't hire military pilots, and wouldn't hire airline pilots, if that tells you anything.
The industry has changed over the past few years. What I have seen as a general rule, however, is that those two pilot groups, far apart from any other, are the least willing to work, least willing to accept change (in a world that is VERY different from their own), and few are willing to do the simple things like scrub and wash their own airplane, clean off the retardant, etc. It's a different lifestyle, and few make it from that arena.
The largest pool of fixed wing tankers presently are the Single Engine Air Tankers, and these are also the single hardest in which to find employment. You'll need a thousand hours of ag time at a minimum, and most places won't hire you to fly ag without that, either. You'll also need time in type, which is very difficult to get, as most are single seat airplanes, and there are really no schools to put you in one. Without solid large turbine tailwheel experience at low level behind you, that area is virtually closed.
The heavy tanker market still has a lot of qualified pilots out of work. Considering it can easily take ten years to upgrade and to make a qualified, carded Initial Attack pilot, companies can't just take anybody off the street, and the line of qualified pilots seeking work is long.
Helicopter work requires mountain experience and long line experience, and today a lot of military pilots are looked upon unfavorably...if you've come from a place where you can lose an engine in your blackhawk and keep on chugging, then your mind isn't prepared for flying an L-3 or OH-6 into a fire in high winds and steep terrain, with limited performance, few escapes, low visibility, strong (severe) turbulence, and no place to autorotate.
Where the majority of the civil helo pilot population used to be military, it's no longer the case, and while military training is always a plus, military experience isn't always looked on favorably...especially for those coming from the Blackhawk or Apache community. I'm not talking them down, just telling like it is.
That said, pilot opportunities in the business, especially in helicopters, are at an all time high, and despite any positive or negative views, if a guy wants job in a helicopter and has the OAS minimums and the long line experience, he will probably find one.
Air Attack positions come in all kinds of flavors, but as 414Flyer said, it's as good a place as any to start, for the fixed wing pilot.
The industry has changed over the past few years. What I have seen as a general rule, however, is that those two pilot groups, far apart from any other, are the least willing to work, least willing to accept change (in a world that is VERY different from their own), and few are willing to do the simple things like scrub and wash their own airplane, clean off the retardant, etc. It's a different lifestyle, and few make it from that arena.
The largest pool of fixed wing tankers presently are the Single Engine Air Tankers, and these are also the single hardest in which to find employment. You'll need a thousand hours of ag time at a minimum, and most places won't hire you to fly ag without that, either. You'll also need time in type, which is very difficult to get, as most are single seat airplanes, and there are really no schools to put you in one. Without solid large turbine tailwheel experience at low level behind you, that area is virtually closed.
The heavy tanker market still has a lot of qualified pilots out of work. Considering it can easily take ten years to upgrade and to make a qualified, carded Initial Attack pilot, companies can't just take anybody off the street, and the line of qualified pilots seeking work is long.
Helicopter work requires mountain experience and long line experience, and today a lot of military pilots are looked upon unfavorably...if you've come from a place where you can lose an engine in your blackhawk and keep on chugging, then your mind isn't prepared for flying an L-3 or OH-6 into a fire in high winds and steep terrain, with limited performance, few escapes, low visibility, strong (severe) turbulence, and no place to autorotate.
Where the majority of the civil helo pilot population used to be military, it's no longer the case, and while military training is always a plus, military experience isn't always looked on favorably...especially for those coming from the Blackhawk or Apache community. I'm not talking them down, just telling like it is.
That said, pilot opportunities in the business, especially in helicopters, are at an all time high, and despite any positive or negative views, if a guy wants job in a helicopter and has the OAS minimums and the long line experience, he will probably find one.
Air Attack positions come in all kinds of flavors, but as 414Flyer said, it's as good a place as any to start, for the fixed wing pilot.
414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2002
- Posts
- 4,948
When I was working out on the McCall complex, the Skycrane out there, had a new copilot who had 400 hours TT when he was hired.
The jobs are out there for an ex-mil pilot, but is one wants it bad enough to go out and fly an AC-500 for summers, or go add on helicopter commercial? If fire is something you really want, here is a hint. There are things you can do that you can add to your qualifications that will make you stand out.
There are lots of other people with no fire experience, actually I think most of the resumes a place like CDF, USFS, Aero Union, etc gets, most apps dont have fire experience. So getting something would put yourself above then. Consider taking the S-130/190 wildland fire class, or volunteering with a local fire department. It by no means guarantees you a job, but you have already put yourself above a lot of applicants.
The jobs are out there for an ex-mil pilot, but is one wants it bad enough to go out and fly an AC-500 for summers, or go add on helicopter commercial? If fire is something you really want, here is a hint. There are things you can do that you can add to your qualifications that will make you stand out.
There are lots of other people with no fire experience, actually I think most of the resumes a place like CDF, USFS, Aero Union, etc gets, most apps dont have fire experience. So getting something would put yourself above then. Consider taking the S-130/190 wildland fire class, or volunteering with a local fire department. It by no means guarantees you a job, but you have already put yourself above a lot of applicants.
I flew a few seasons with a Wyoming based operator and they had a mix of former airline/military. Worked out well. In fact for a while the chief pilot was a furloughed United pilot. The one making the hiring decisions was a Naval P-3 aviator. There wasn't any bias that I saw.
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