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Military pilots in fire fighting
- Thread starter Huggyu2
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414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
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You can go fly seasonal air attack for USFS or BLM contractors, like most everyone else does, thats the main way into the better fire jobs.
Its difficult for anyone to break into it. Very few openings at all, and you already have a lot of people with years if not decades of experience, who have lost their jobs and are try to get back in. Being Mil isnt going to help you break into it, and someone who has been doing summers as an air attack pilot or groundpounder, is going to have an advantage over you for an airtanker copilot or contract smokejumper pilot job.
Not many mil pilots are willing to go spend summers flying twin commanders or cessna mixmasters around, or even that have piston twin experience. If you had a P-3 type, that would help in getting on with Aero Union possibly.
USFS/BLM will take someone with mil experience, over fire experience for what little to nonexistent openings they have, just because the hiring rating scale works that way. But then due to 1/4 the airtankers being around as their used to be, guess what, less lead planes needed.
CDF - well you have at least 800 applicants who are already in line ahead of you with resumes, many of whom have fire experience on the air, on the ground, or both. People with fire experience are way ahead of you in knowledge of the fire environmental and what goes on.
You can also thank Tony Kern, ex USAF B-1B instructor, who took a lateral transfer into USFS head of Aviation, helped take a wrecking ball to aerial firefighting program , then bailed to other stuff the next year
If you do get an interview for a job you want, the person who interviews you will probably not be military. Feel free to discuss how your mil experience shows you are trainable and can learn specialized types of flying. However do not act like your mil experience means you should get preference over someone who had been working hard and spending summers orbiting over fires every day, because that will go over like a lead balloon
Another thing, is that you could spend all fire season with the same people, so you want to come across as someone who people can be around and get along with. I know of someone who managed to get a CDF interview with no fire experience, and pretty much came across like someone hard to be around, and didnt get hired.
Its difficult for anyone to break into it. Very few openings at all, and you already have a lot of people with years if not decades of experience, who have lost their jobs and are try to get back in. Being Mil isnt going to help you break into it, and someone who has been doing summers as an air attack pilot or groundpounder, is going to have an advantage over you for an airtanker copilot or contract smokejumper pilot job.
Not many mil pilots are willing to go spend summers flying twin commanders or cessna mixmasters around, or even that have piston twin experience. If you had a P-3 type, that would help in getting on with Aero Union possibly.
USFS/BLM will take someone with mil experience, over fire experience for what little to nonexistent openings they have, just because the hiring rating scale works that way. But then due to 1/4 the airtankers being around as their used to be, guess what, less lead planes needed.
CDF - well you have at least 800 applicants who are already in line ahead of you with resumes, many of whom have fire experience on the air, on the ground, or both. People with fire experience are way ahead of you in knowledge of the fire environmental and what goes on.
You can also thank Tony Kern, ex USAF B-1B instructor, who took a lateral transfer into USFS head of Aviation, helped take a wrecking ball to aerial firefighting program , then bailed to other stuff the next year
If you do get an interview for a job you want, the person who interviews you will probably not be military. Feel free to discuss how your mil experience shows you are trainable and can learn specialized types of flying. However do not act like your mil experience means you should get preference over someone who had been working hard and spending summers orbiting over fires every day, because that will go over like a lead balloon
Another thing, is that you could spend all fire season with the same people, so you want to come across as someone who people can be around and get along with. I know of someone who managed to get a CDF interview with no fire experience, and pretty much came across like someone hard to be around, and didnt get hired.
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He's the guy that did all the CRM junk, isn't he? Sounds like he sure cashed in on that.
He was a military guy? If so, did he project an "I'm a military guy" image, and kill is chances that way?
Great post. Thanks for the perspective.
414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
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No, the person who who got the interview but didnt get hired, wasnt mil. Once I met that person, I could exactly see why he didnt get the job, not exactly someone I would want to spend time around all fire season.
I am not CDF, been trying for a number of years. A hard nut to crack now, at one time it wasnt.
There are some companies that fly contractor jumpplanes, and there are a small number of jobs there. Some of those will even hire into left seat occasionally.
One area of firefighting where they are lots of ex-mil pilots is in helicopters.
I am not CDF, been trying for a number of years. A hard nut to crack now, at one time it wasnt.
There are some companies that fly contractor jumpplanes, and there are a small number of jobs there. Some of those will even hire into left seat occasionally.
One area of firefighting where they are lots of ex-mil pilots is in helicopters.
I flew large air tankers for a company founded by military pilots, and managed by military pilots...including the owner, president, chief pilot, etc. They were quite adamant that they wouldn't hire military pilots, and wouldn't hire airline pilots, if that tells you anything.
The industry has changed over the past few years. What I have seen as a general rule, however, is that those two pilot groups, far apart from any other, are the least willing to work, least willing to accept change (in a world that is VERY different from their own), and few are willing to do the simple things like scrub and wash their own airplane, clean off the retardant, etc. It's a different lifestyle, and few make it from that arena.
The largest pool of fixed wing tankers presently are the Single Engine Air Tankers, and these are also the single hardest in which to find employment. You'll need a thousand hours of ag time at a minimum, and most places won't hire you to fly ag without that, either. You'll also need time in type, which is very difficult to get, as most are single seat airplanes, and there are really no schools to put you in one. Without solid large turbine tailwheel experience at low level behind you, that area is virtually closed.
The heavy tanker market still has a lot of qualified pilots out of work. Considering it can easily take ten years to upgrade and to make a qualified, carded Initial Attack pilot, companies can't just take anybody off the street, and the line of qualified pilots seeking work is long.
Helicopter work requires mountain experience and long line experience, and today a lot of military pilots are looked upon unfavorably...if you've come from a place where you can lose an engine in your blackhawk and keep on chugging, then your mind isn't prepared for flying an L-3 or OH-6 into a fire in high winds and steep terrain, with limited performance, few escapes, low visibility, strong (severe) turbulence, and no place to autorotate.
Where the majority of the civil helo pilot population used to be military, it's no longer the case, and while military training is always a plus, military experience isn't always looked on favorably...especially for those coming from the Blackhawk or Apache community. I'm not talking them down, just telling like it is.
That said, pilot opportunities in the business, especially in helicopters, are at an all time high, and despite any positive or negative views, if a guy wants job in a helicopter and has the OAS minimums and the long line experience, he will probably find one.
Air Attack positions come in all kinds of flavors, but as 414Flyer said, it's as good a place as any to start, for the fixed wing pilot.
The industry has changed over the past few years. What I have seen as a general rule, however, is that those two pilot groups, far apart from any other, are the least willing to work, least willing to accept change (in a world that is VERY different from their own), and few are willing to do the simple things like scrub and wash their own airplane, clean off the retardant, etc. It's a different lifestyle, and few make it from that arena.
The largest pool of fixed wing tankers presently are the Single Engine Air Tankers, and these are also the single hardest in which to find employment. You'll need a thousand hours of ag time at a minimum, and most places won't hire you to fly ag without that, either. You'll also need time in type, which is very difficult to get, as most are single seat airplanes, and there are really no schools to put you in one. Without solid large turbine tailwheel experience at low level behind you, that area is virtually closed.
The heavy tanker market still has a lot of qualified pilots out of work. Considering it can easily take ten years to upgrade and to make a qualified, carded Initial Attack pilot, companies can't just take anybody off the street, and the line of qualified pilots seeking work is long.
Helicopter work requires mountain experience and long line experience, and today a lot of military pilots are looked upon unfavorably...if you've come from a place where you can lose an engine in your blackhawk and keep on chugging, then your mind isn't prepared for flying an L-3 or OH-6 into a fire in high winds and steep terrain, with limited performance, few escapes, low visibility, strong (severe) turbulence, and no place to autorotate.
Where the majority of the civil helo pilot population used to be military, it's no longer the case, and while military training is always a plus, military experience isn't always looked on favorably...especially for those coming from the Blackhawk or Apache community. I'm not talking them down, just telling like it is.
That said, pilot opportunities in the business, especially in helicopters, are at an all time high, and despite any positive or negative views, if a guy wants job in a helicopter and has the OAS minimums and the long line experience, he will probably find one.
Air Attack positions come in all kinds of flavors, but as 414Flyer said, it's as good a place as any to start, for the fixed wing pilot.
414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
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When I was working out on the McCall complex, the Skycrane out there, had a new copilot who had 400 hours TT when he was hired.
The jobs are out there for an ex-mil pilot, but is one wants it bad enough to go out and fly an AC-500 for summers, or go add on helicopter commercial? If fire is something you really want, here is a hint. There are things you can do that you can add to your qualifications that will make you stand out.
There are lots of other people with no fire experience, actually I think most of the resumes a place like CDF, USFS, Aero Union, etc gets, most apps dont have fire experience. So getting something would put yourself above then. Consider taking the S-130/190 wildland fire class, or volunteering with a local fire department. It by no means guarantees you a job, but you have already put yourself above a lot of applicants.
The jobs are out there for an ex-mil pilot, but is one wants it bad enough to go out and fly an AC-500 for summers, or go add on helicopter commercial? If fire is something you really want, here is a hint. There are things you can do that you can add to your qualifications that will make you stand out.
There are lots of other people with no fire experience, actually I think most of the resumes a place like CDF, USFS, Aero Union, etc gets, most apps dont have fire experience. So getting something would put yourself above then. Consider taking the S-130/190 wildland fire class, or volunteering with a local fire department. It by no means guarantees you a job, but you have already put yourself above a lot of applicants.
I flew a few seasons with a Wyoming based operator and they had a mix of former airline/military. Worked out well. In fact for a while the chief pilot was a furloughed United pilot. The one making the hiring decisions was a Naval P-3 aviator. There wasn't any bias that I saw.
414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
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If you happen to have a large chunk of change sitting around, and time to set up 135 certificate and buy airplanes/helos, train pilots....sure
But do you really want to gamble a large sum of money on the whims of USFS/BLM? If you already had a 135 cert, airplanes, and pilots, that is one thing, but I certainly wouldnt go trying to set that up in hopes of getting fire work
But do you really want to gamble a large sum of money on the whims of USFS/BLM? If you already had a 135 cert, airplanes, and pilots, that is one thing, but I certainly wouldnt go trying to set that up in hopes of getting fire work
The federal government ran out of money this last fire season, with a lot of resources either unused, or severely cut back. I've received several budget proposals and prognostics for next year, and it doesn't look good.
A helicopter operator might have a chance. If you're looking to start a fixed wing operation, I'd say don't bother.
Either way, you really ought to get some fire experience working for someone else before you try breaking into the business.
A helicopter operator might have a chance. If you're looking to start a fixed wing operation, I'd say don't bother.
Either way, you really ought to get some fire experience working for someone else before you try breaking into the business.
Either or both, depending on for whom you work. The pay scale can be complicated. As an example, I flew an Air Tractor AT-802A Single Engine Air Tanker (SEAT) for one contract, and had daily availability pay, hourly pay, daily per diem, extended availability (overtime past nine hours), mileage, and maintenance pay (when performing aircraft maintenance).
Where it gets more complicated, especially for planning purposes, is determining the number of days you'll work, the number of hours you'll fly, the amount of extended availability you'll get, or where you'll be for the perdiem, which can vary considerably. None of these things can be predicted. I've had years that lasted ten months without coming home, and others where the season went a grand fifteen days before coming to a grinding halt. I've flown as little as 30 hours in a year, and had weeks when it snowed, or we sat in heavy rain, with no extended availability.
The pay varies widely too, between aircraft, employers, and one's own background and skill level (and certification), as well as what one is able to negotiate with the employer. A typical average starting wage (for an experienced pilot) for the first seasonw with a SEAT operation would be something like 375.00 daily, plus 375.00 per flight hour, plus 44.00 per hour each day after nine hours on duty (up to 14 hours max duty daily, so a potential of 5 hours extended availability), plus between 99 and 180 daily per diem, plus various wages for mx performed on the side and other duties, typically about twenty five bucks an hour or so. Mileage applies more to relief pilots who get an hourly rate enroute to do relief, plus mileage on the way, typically about 50 cents a mile, I think.
Bear in mind that I've seen operators in the same type aircraft pay as low as one fifty a day and one fifty a flight hour, and some pay more than what's cited above. These are only examples.
Heavy tanker wages vary considerably too. The best paid tankers in the industry presently are probably the CDF aircraft in California, making over six figures a season, and that includes the OV-10 platforms.
The flip side is you can spend ten years trying to find an available seat, and never get one...gettting employed in the industry is extremely difficult, and starting next year, willl probably only get more so as things scale back farther with more budget cuts, and fewer aircraft on the line.
Where it gets more complicated, especially for planning purposes, is determining the number of days you'll work, the number of hours you'll fly, the amount of extended availability you'll get, or where you'll be for the perdiem, which can vary considerably. None of these things can be predicted. I've had years that lasted ten months without coming home, and others where the season went a grand fifteen days before coming to a grinding halt. I've flown as little as 30 hours in a year, and had weeks when it snowed, or we sat in heavy rain, with no extended availability.
The pay varies widely too, between aircraft, employers, and one's own background and skill level (and certification), as well as what one is able to negotiate with the employer. A typical average starting wage (for an experienced pilot) for the first seasonw with a SEAT operation would be something like 375.00 daily, plus 375.00 per flight hour, plus 44.00 per hour each day after nine hours on duty (up to 14 hours max duty daily, so a potential of 5 hours extended availability), plus between 99 and 180 daily per diem, plus various wages for mx performed on the side and other duties, typically about twenty five bucks an hour or so. Mileage applies more to relief pilots who get an hourly rate enroute to do relief, plus mileage on the way, typically about 50 cents a mile, I think.
Bear in mind that I've seen operators in the same type aircraft pay as low as one fifty a day and one fifty a flight hour, and some pay more than what's cited above. These are only examples.
Heavy tanker wages vary considerably too. The best paid tankers in the industry presently are probably the CDF aircraft in California, making over six figures a season, and that includes the OV-10 platforms.
The flip side is you can spend ten years trying to find an available seat, and never get one...gettting employed in the industry is extremely difficult, and starting next year, willl probably only get more so as things scale back farther with more budget cuts, and fewer aircraft on the line.
I live in San Diego and there is an uproar about the lack of aircraft. That should be one thing that shouldn't be cut back. How many times do we have to go through these fires before they realize this. I don't know how people get any fixed wing flying jobs. They seem tough especially the SEAT jobs. Flying an OV-10 would be awesome. Helos don't seem to tough. The reason about pay was I know ground crews make all there money on overtime. Thanks Avbug.
"Helos don't seem to tough."
Have you ever thought about where the "Helo" is working? If anything slightly goes askew while working the side of a mountain side, above a scene which looks like Hell you don't come back. Lets say he crashes and survives the impact. He only has 7000' more feet to roll thru burning tree's. Sounds pretty reassuring dosn't it?
Helo work is dangerous, very dangerous. No room for anything to go wrong hour after hour after hour.
All tanker work, Seat's, Heavy, and Helo's is dangerous, probably the most dangerous work around in a aircraft, besides doing aircraft carrier ldg's in bad wx day after day, night after night.
Have you ever thought about where the "Helo" is working? If anything slightly goes askew while working the side of a mountain side, above a scene which looks like Hell you don't come back. Lets say he crashes and survives the impact. He only has 7000' more feet to roll thru burning tree's. Sounds pretty reassuring dosn't it?
Helo work is dangerous, very dangerous. No room for anything to go wrong hour after hour after hour.
All tanker work, Seat's, Heavy, and Helo's is dangerous, probably the most dangerous work around in a aircraft, besides doing aircraft carrier ldg's in bad wx day after day, night after night.
There was never a lack of aircraft for those fires; there was wind in excess of the limitations of the aircraft.
What you have is the usual california whining and winging. People put their lives on the line to what they did, and as always, it's never good enough.
What about all the idiots who let the brush grow up under their redwood decks, elected not to have defensible space around their homes, and didn't build in preparation for the fires that are inevitable throughout Region 5 (southern california)?
Same crying and whining that we hear every year. Nobody is satisifed until pilots start dying, then they complain that it wasn't safe enough.
What you have is the usual california whining and winging. People put their lives on the line to what they did, and as always, it's never good enough.
What about all the idiots who let the brush grow up under their redwood decks, elected not to have defensible space around their homes, and didn't build in preparation for the fires that are inevitable throughout Region 5 (southern california)?
Same crying and whining that we hear every year. Nobody is satisifed until pilots start dying, then they complain that it wasn't safe enough.
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