Military Formation Flight Question

[zbwmy]

This question is for fighter aircraft. If you are in a standard formation of 2 ships or greater at a single altitude, and ask ATC to go non standard formation, do you always get a block altitude assigned? Does ATC just say approved and and you remain at a single altitude? I am not talking about cell formations here, just when fighters are at a single altitude and desire to expand to a non standard formation.

Mark

 

[cfrey79]

Requesting non-standard formation is a means of increasing the spacing between aircraft within the formation to more than 1nm. A block altitude request is self explanatory. Non-standard formation requests and block altitude requests are usually separate requests.

 

[SIG600]

When you're running around in a formation, ATC dosen't care what formation you're in. Section or division... you check in and out as a flight. Lead is the only one with a squawk code, and the only one doing the talking. The rest of the members of the flight just follow along through the freq's, listen, and follow the lead. There is no "standard" formation. If you're in a 2 ship, you'll use either a close in parade (roughly 3 feet wing tip separation, 5 or so feet of step down.. tireing and uses more gas for -2) or a looser cruise formation (by loose, we're talking 50 or so feet apart). 3 and 4 ships will use either an echelon or a balanced "fingertip" formation, either can be flown in tight parade, or a loose cruise position. Again ATC dosen't care what formation you're in... they probably arn't even seeing more than one a/c.

If you're talking about ALTRAV's (I think I spelled that right) it's another story... don't have a lot of personal experience with it, but you're talking long distance, and taking a block of altitude for a large number of a/c to transit.

 

[cfrey79]

When you're running around in a formation, ATC dosen't care what formation you're in. Section or division... you check in and out as a flight. Lead is the only one with a squawk code, and the only one doing the talking. The rest of the members of the flight just follow along through the freq's, listen, and follow the lead. There is no "standard" formation.
Again ATC dosen't care what formation you're in... they probably arn't even seeing more than one a/c.


SIG,
That is incorrect. Standard formation is within 1nm and 100 feet of altitude. You must maintain these distances unless approved by ATC. They can often tell when you are not within a mile.

 

[Steeler Fan]

When you're running around in a formation, ATC dosen't care what formation you're in. Section or division... you check in and out as a flight. Lead is the only one with a squawk code, and the only one doing the talking. The rest of the members of the flight just follow along through the freq's, listen, and follow the lead. There is no "standard" formation.
Again ATC dosen't care what formation you're in... they probably arn't even seeing more than one a/c.


SIG,
That is incorrect. Standard formation is within 1nm and 100 feet of altitude. You must maintain these distances unless approved by ATC. They can often tell when you are not within a mile.

Good job, SIG. Also, tankers fly air refueling formation and do formation departures. Often, ATC will also have the last tanker in the formation squawk as well.

 

[zbwmy]

Requesting non-standard formation is a means of increasing the spacing between aircraft within the formation to more than 1nm. A block altitude request is self explanatory. Non-standard formation requests and block altitude requests are usually separate requests.

So in your experiance, Centers do not automatically issue a block altitude if a formation flight at a single altitude requests non standard formation?

 

[MooseTrax]

correct

 

[stonewall]

As a side note, the only time we usually request a non-standard formation is when we're IMC. We'll sometimes fly a radar trail when IMC, with flight members 1.5-2.0 NM behind the guy in front of them "tied" by a radar lock. It beats flying fingertip, especially with a 4 ship. And we usually don't request the non-standard; we just tell 'em we're non-standard when we check in and give them the distance front to back. We're usually talking to the same guys every day, so it's usually not a problem. If we're in a close formation and see upcoming WX and THEN want to go non-standard with the radar trail, we'll request it. Usually always approved. Long answer to a short question.

And the block altitudes are often requested when going XC with a 4 ship or greater. No reason for it, other than comfort factor for the guys flying on the wing.

 

[SIG600]

Standard formation is within 1nm and 100 feet of altitude. You must maintain these distances unless approved by ATC. They can often tell when you are not within a mile.

I was thinking "standard formation" being a formation (fingertip, echelon, etc.) I misunderstood the ques.