Military ATC Position

[pilotman2105]

My knowledge of the military is next to nothing. Essentially, what I know is that each person in the military protects the rights that I exercise every day. Furthermore, some of those people carry guns. With that said, I have a few questions, mainly to better inform me to possibly make a decision in the distant future.

As everyone in aviation should do, I am trying to keep my options open. I have been accepted to an ATC program starting in the fall and will finish up within a year or so. Given that, I also have a bachelor's degree in aviation (I know, probably a mistake, but can't dwell on that now). I'm fairly passionate about becoming a controller in some fashion, as I believe that I would really enjoy the job. That leads me to my series of about 20,000 questions.

What all is involved in being a controller for the military? I understand that each branch has controllers, and each branch hires them in a different way. What would it take for someone off the street to get into one of those positions?

The reason that I am interest is that if things do not work out in the civilian sector, I am wondering if the military option is a viable one. With the FAA being as on the fence as they have been for the past 6 months to a year, especially with the impending controller shortage that they seem to be doing nothing about, I want some sort of backup plan (or two or three). It's all about keeping the options open.

Thank you to anyone who can shed any light on this subject for me!

 

[Toro]

First thing you'd need to do would be to enlist in whatever branch you want to serve with. As with anything, including pilot training, you're not guaranteed a spot as a controller when you enlist. Trying to get a slot as a controller would be fairly close to trying to get any job in the Air Force. You'll put down your career preference, you'll take a test (most likely the ASVAB since you'd be enlisting) and you'll hope that you get to train in that field. I don't know if there is a specific tech school for ATC guys, but in all the towers I've been in, there have been one and two stripers in training. Along with that, there are constantly guys getting upgraded (a lot like pilot training and all the follow on training).
Being a controller in one sense can compared to being a pilot in the sense that the AF will give you extremely valuable skills which can be transferred to the civilian sector once you get out. The only problem, as you've noticed, is that sometimes the civilian sector isn't hiring...

 

[LJDRVR]

Talk to an Air Force Recruiter. The USAF has both enlisted and officer controllers. EITHER skillset is directly transferable to the FAA. (The enlisted more so, as they spend more time working the positions.)

I don't know how it is these days, but there should be a mechanism to guarantee you an ATC position. Shop around until you find a controller who's willing to put it in writing.

Good Luck!

 

[ATCER]

I was never in the military but I'll try and provide some info. First, how old are you ??? The FAA cutoff age for hiring is 31, more specifically you need to be hired by your 31st B'day. You mention that you have been accepted into an ATC program, I'm guessing CTI ??? If so good move... that will be the prime hiring pool for controllers, as far as what I have seen and heard. MARC school is being shut down I hear, the Gov't has stopped funding it. If you're young I think you'll be able to wait out the FAA hiring freeze.

As for your question about the military, try and go to the source, ex or current military controllers. I see from your profile that you're a pilot, use this to your advantage. It doesn't say where you live but here is what I suggest doing, when your up and talking to ATC (when it's slow) ask for a phone # to contact them, say you have an ATC related question or something. I think you can also look for phone #'s in the AFD though I haven't looked at one is years... call and tell them you're a pilot, CFI, etc. and would like a tour to better understand the operation. They should allow you to, we had some pilots through the center the other day who were local and wanted to see the place. Once there strike up some conversations and see what you can find out, try and find some ex military guys and see what they have to say. I can't speak for everyone but we're a friendly bunch, whenever tours have come through we always have been happy to answer questions. I don't know about military facilities, I doubt tours would be available but you never know.

As for FAA hiring... the new ATO (Air Traffic Organization) is what is holding everything up. They are all screwed up by this and no one has any idea what is going on, from the top down.

Good Luck !!! ... and post any more questions you may have.

One last thing, try going to ~> www.stuckmic.com it's an ATC related message board. Kinda goofy to navigate but there are TONS of military controllers on there, you may have more luck with the military questions there.

 

[pilotman2105]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

To clarify a few points, I applied to the MARC program for this Fall, had an excellent rating to get in there, and then they shut the door before I could get my college transcript into them. Had a backup plan through CCBC in Pennsylvania. Have been accepted there, registered for classes today, and start in September.

The good thing about the CCBC program is that I earn a CTO in the tower at KBVI. In doing this, I've heard that I'm eligible to be hired by the contract companies. While this isn't what I ultimately want, it may serve as a good temporary solution (while providing somewhat meaningful experience) until the FAA figures out what the he11 is going on with the ATO division/department/whatever. Granted, I can't sit there forever, because of the age limitation, but that's where things are at for now.

Regarding the military questions, I'm just trying to keep the options open. Having that backup plan is always nice.

Thanks for the info!

 

[ATCER]

I'll tell you this much, there will be no word on hiring or anything to that effect until after the elections... and a lot is going to depend on who gets elected. I'm not starting a political debate... but if Bush wins hiring will most likely be slow. A lot of things have gone on under this administration that I cannot post on a public board, put simply they are after us (the controllers).


There are lots of rumors as to how they will deal with staffing from extending the mandatory retirement age (above 56), to moving FSS people over. I can tell you that people I work with who are close to retirement are going no matter what, they are burnt out. We have lost 3 this year alone, and have about 10 going in the next 2 years. We work a lot of OT and still can't meet the FAA's stafing #'s so the shortage is the real deal. The agency can put things off a year or two but after that I think we are in big trouble, I'm not kidding.


As for the new ATO, the readers digest version. FAA is doing away with current regions, the country will be broken up into three regions, something like East, West and Central. Each one has 3 Air Traffic departments, Enroute (centers), Terminal (towers and tracons), and Flight Service. Each one will be given a yearly budget and be responsible for all aspects of the operation. I'll try and find some articles to post. This along with the election year has ground things to a halt.

I guess I may be painting a bleek picture but I advise anyone to hang in there... put yourself in the position to be hired because when they do it's worth a shot to take the job. It's a great job.

Good Luck !

 

[dtfl]

Pilotman

I bet the AF would give you the ATC position. Those folks see the job opportunities and leave when they can get an FAA job.
Your tech school is at Keesler AFB in Biloxi. I know. I fly there...sometimes it ain't fun

 

[CrewDawg]

First off....do not enlist until you have a guaranteed job! What you need to do is call a recruiter and schedule an ASVAB. This test is not that bad but you probably need to get a decent score to become a Controller, you can pick up a study guide at a local library or Barnes & Noble. Once you get your scores back from that test then sit down with a recruiter and talk about a job as a controller. Whatever you do don't let him talk you into enlisting before it is in writing that your guaranteed job is ATC. If you don't they military has the opportunity to put you where they want. Hope this helps

 

[pilotman2105]

Thank you everyone for your insight. Looks like I'll sit on the fence a bit longer to figure out what the FAA does in the next year or so. Pretty much, I'm going to make myself as ready for the job as possible when the FAA figures out what their issues are.

Gotta love the government.

ATCER: Are they (FAA) going to let people keep retiring and not hiring until 10 people are running the whole show? I mean something has got to give sometime, and fairly soon by your comments and others...

 

[ATCER]

ATCER: Are they (FAA) going to let people keep retiring and not hiring until 10 people are running the whole show? I mean something has got to give sometime, and fairly soon by your comments and others...

I wonder about that myself sometimes... they are going to have to do something soon, we are maxed on OT, some days we have every person assigned to a shift that can work it (regualry scheduled, OT, pulled off details) and still are short. We are never going to be fat with bodies but they have to hire right now just to keep us where we are.

We'll see movement after the election, any Gov't employee can confirm that as an election approaches things grind to a halt. You're making the right moves to put yourself in position to get hired.

Hang in there...

 

[ATCER]

Here is a good article...


AVIATION WEEK AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY: Air Transport Audit Spurs FAA on Controller Attrition, Training

Tuesday, June 15, 2004



Audit finds there's a lot the FAA doesn't know about controller attrition, on-the-job training

Foggy Data

Auditors from the U.S. Transportation Dept. inspector general's office have entered the long-simmering staffing argument between the FAA and its air traffic controllers' union on the side of--both.

On one hand, the auditors stated the obvious--the agency will have to hire and train controllers during the second half of the decade "at levels not experienced since the early 1980s." That is when the FAA replaced most of its controller workforce, fired by the Reagan administration in 1981 after the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization went out on strike.

Nonetheless, this assessment pleased the successor union, the National Air Traffic Controllers Assn. (Natca), which has pressed the FAA for several years to accelerate hiring to make up for a wave of departures as the early-1980s hires become eligible to retire. But that issue isn't what it used to be--as of last fall, it is Congress, not the FAA, that stands in the way of hiring.

Approving FAA's appropriation for Fiscal 2004, Congress turned down a request--modest by Natca standards--for new hires to anticipate retirement-spurred attrition. Lawmakers told the agency to look at alternatives, such as creating incentives for controllers to stay and waiving mandatory retirement at age 56.

BEYOND THE HIRING question, auditors called for measures the FAA is willing to take and in some cases has already begun. These include developing facility-by-facility attrition estimates based on common assumptions, rating the ability of newly hired controllers and placing them at facilities where their abilities match demands of the job, and standardizing and streamlining on-the-job training at ATC facilities.

Although the FAA maintains a "reasonable" estimate of controller attrition at the national level, based on attrition rates for the previous three years and adjusted annually (see graph), these estimates don't indicate where vacancies will occur and replacements will be needed, the auditors said. By contrast, individual en route centers, Tracons and towers estimate their own attrition using a hodgepodge of methodologies.

For example, the auditors cited, one facility only projected mandatory retirements, another, attrition for transfers but not retirements, and another, estimates on all types of attrition--retirements, transfers, resignations and removals. "Because of these differences . . . wide variances in projected attrition rates occurred from facility to facility . . . The Chicago Center projected 115 controllers would leave in the next two years because all attrition was considered . . whereas the Jacksonville Center projected 10 retirements because only mandatory retirements were included."

The FAA estimates that nearly 7,100 controllers may leave the agency in the next nine years, more than three times the turnover of the past eight years.Credit: Source: Inspector General, U.S. Transportation Dept.

The FAA tests applicants for controller jobs to assess their potential, but only since January. The agency still has no plans to use these test scores in deciding where to assign trainees, even though facilities are sorted into grade levels 5-12 based on their demands on a controller's judgment, skill and ability to make decisions. "Currently, FAA places newly hired controllers based only on where and when vacancies occur, and many of those vacancies occur at some of FAA's busiest and most complex facilities," the auditors said.

The biggest data gaps are in on-the-job training at individual facilities, and this clouds assessments of training time, costs and effectiveness. The auditors found "wide variances" at 17 locations they visited--nine en route centers, six Tracons and three towers--and they couldn't explain them. In 2002-03, New York Center and Washington Center, both training about 70 people, had 15 and four training failures, respectively. It took an average of 3.8 years to certify a trainee in New York, 1.3 years at Minneapolis.

THE AUDITORS NOTED several possible reasons for these discrepancies. At some facilities trainees must wait for a quorum to start a class; at others they progress individually. Sometimes operational needs keep trainees in a sector for which they already are certified, even though there are other sectors in which they need experience. Certification time varies with the source of the trainee--for example, military services, college programs, lower-level FAA facilities.

 

[pilotman2105]

Simply amazing. Nobody seems to have a clue. Despite x million dollars being spend on studies, they still don't know anything from where they've started.

Typical government...

Here's another article from AvWeb...

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/253-full.html#187489