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Mike Boyd: The RJ Glut Is Here

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FurloughedAgain

Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Posts
1,657
From Aviationplanning.com

Hot Flash - September 15, 2003

It's Official, The RJ Glut Is Here.
It's The First Rumblings of An Entirely New Airline Model.


Here's a news flash for airport planners: There are major airline industry changes coming over the next three to five years - changes that will affect service levels, competitive strategies, and air service development needs.

Regional jets, for example, are just one early indication, and one that's still missed by most analysts. Take the following quote:

"...There will be more regional jets as a percentage of airline fleets going forward, and fewer mainline aircraft..." - A direct quote from one of the usual aviation analyst suspects, in a July 6, 2000 newspaper sunshine story on how airlines are "embracing" regional jets.

Do a search and comments like this are clearly the thinking of the day. Or lack of same, especially since it's becoming pretty obvious that most of the big orders for RJs are over, particularly 50-seaters. Let's move up a couple of weeks for another view - one from the airline side:

"... Our financial performance is enhanced by reducing RJ capacity... we currently have more regional jets (RJs) than we would ideally like.... (we) will immediately eliminate five CRJ-200s and five CRJ-700s... we will have 29 percent less RJ capacity next year (than we had planned)..." - Company message to America West employees, September 8, 2003. Emphasis added.

New Fleet Economics - Part of A New Airline Model. No, this isn't just an aberration particular to America West. Over the next five years, we'll be hearing sounds like this coming from other airlines. To be sure, RJs - the 50 seaters and their stretched and shrunk variants - will be around for many years to come, but after about 2005-2006, it will be in slowly declining numbers. RJs are great aircraft, but there is a finite number of any type of aircraft that the airline industry can use. That's number is going to be reached in the RJ market within the next three years, if not sooner. The next wave of orders will be in the 70- 110 seat E-jet category, which are not even vaguely close to "regional jets" in economics, fleet mission, or real-world operating envelope.

But the real message here is not just about RJs, but also about an emerging sea-change in the way airlines do business. Note that America West isn't eliminating its own RJ operations, but instead is adjusting the amount of services it is purchasing from a small jet provider (SJP.) It's an indication of a new trend far beyond eliminating 10 RJs.

Write this down: the airline industry is evolving into a modular, outsourced production model. The many parts of the production chain will eventually be interchangeable among a range of vendors and suppliers, and it will be the most efficient that will survive. RJ lift.is just one part.

Historically, airlines had tightly-interconnected production chains that were specific to the individual carrier. From CRS systems to reservations, to in-flight service, to maintenance, to accounting, all systems were typically proprietary and internal to the carrier. But the future will be a model consisting of a production chain that's made up of modules that can - and will - be easily pulled out and replaced as necessary to meet economic and market conditions. We've seen it with the retail channels, where airlines have closed their own reservations centers and replaced them seamlessly with outside vendors, including some that are overseas. Maintenance is going in the same direction. Every supplier had best get the message: you're expendable, and in the future, only the strongest and best will survive.

Battleground One: Manufacturer Fallout. Meanwhile, Back In Montreal... As our forecast conference attendees learned more than three years ago, the new trend isn't "regional" jets, but mid-size "E-jets" - specifically, the Embraer 170/190 platform.

Already jetBlue has ordered 100. US Airways has an order, too. Unlike RJs, these are not small jets with cramped cabins. They are direct competitors for the lower end of the market now dominated by the A-320 and B-737 series.

But - consistent with the modular concept - it's no longer just airlines that are ordering - it's consortiums of sometimes disparate carriers with varying mission applications and route systems. Manufacturers must be able to produce aircraft that can fit easily and inter-changeably within these systems. Take a look up north for the latest example. Air Canada recently held the airline equivalent of a Tupperware Party, inviting aircraft manufacturers to bring in their products to get the once-over from not only the airline, but some of its best frequent flyers and corporate accounts. Airbus buzzed in with the A-318. Boeing arrived with a shiny new 717. Bombardier displayed the 70-seat and 90-seat versions of its 50-seat RJ. Embraer arrived with an E-170. Air Canada asked some of its best corporate customers to give their opinions on the comfort of each airplane. At stake is a potential 200-unit order for the Star Alliance, which is specifically looking for 70 to 110 seat airliners. The indication is that this future fleet will be interchangeable between Star Alliance partners. It's another module in the production chain of an airline consortium, not just one carrier.

The Next Battleground - Small Jet Providers. Since there is an emerging excess of 50-seat jets, plan also on a shrinking market for the entities that operate them, i.e., Small Jet Providers, which some folks still call "regional airlines." These are also becoming a part of a modular production chain, and major carriers will increasingly be able to pick and choose the suppliers which they feel are best suited to provide RJ lift. The shakeout is starting, with Atlantic Coast planning to pull out of the SJP business and try to go it alone. There may well be more SJPs in the next few years with fleets of Canadair and Embraer RJs all dressed up with no place to go.

The survivor SJPs will be the ones that have not only the lowest costs, but also can provide the best, cleanest, and most customer-oriented service. Some, to be sure, are already mostly there. Others are in line for a rude and expensive awakening.
 
Thats the first article I've seen -- but I suspect the first of many to come -- which extols the virtues of the EMB170/190 vs. the Canadair CRJ700/900.

I truely believe that the customer (both airline customer and passenger customer) will vastly prefer the 170/190 over the CRJ model.
  • The EMB170 cabin is wider, brighter, and arguably more comfortable.
  • The airplane can utilze existing jetway equipment (without Mickey-Mouse ramps, adapters, or other contraptions).
  • The cargo area is underfloor and is significantly larger than on the CRJ models. This may provide the airline with the oportunity to add incremental revenue with freight, mail, etc.
My opinion? Canadair better get on the stick and either come up with a competitive product (not another stretch Challenger), or work with their large customers to develop enhancements to their existing products to make them more customer friendly.

What do you folks think?
 
How will this effect pilot pay?

Will the pilots of the 'big RJ's' be flown by main line or regional pilots?, ie. will the pay for flying these planes be comparable to the pay for flying a B-737 or more like what you earn for flying your typical ERJ/CRJ?
 
I know that Dalpa will not give in when it comes to the 100 seaters. They would be replacing the 737-200's directly, and therefore will be flown by mainline pilots. Apparently Delta is narrowing it down right now to two planes, and an order will probably be forthcoming. The rates will UNDOUBTABLY be lower than normal mainline rates, and I think Dalpa will be willing to do that---as long as there are some sort of limits. (We can't have 10 total 777s, then 200 A318s or 736's etc, and then 1000 RJs) IF there is something in the works to eventually bring back our furloughed pilots---probably with the 100 seaters, then I bet Comair/ASA/Skywest will get more 70 seaters.(I included Skywest because of their latest order) Dalpa will not give in on the 100 seaters.

Bye Bye--General Lee:cool: :rolleyes:
 
FurloughedAgain.. I think you are onto something. Canadair has a loyal customer base and in my opinion, it is a much better product that it's nearest competitor HOWEVER Embraer has forged new territory with this new 170. Looks like a nice plane. I think Bombardier needs to develop a totally new product to stay competitive.....if they do, I'll bet you it is a far superior product to the Embraer. It will be fun to watch the erj vs. crj fight continue.

Just my thoughts.
 
That's a perfect article to all those who chant that the EMB series is just another RJ. E series, I like the ring of that.

The fat lady has sung for Bombardier, and the RRJ from Russia. Neither of them could get anything certified fast enough to stop Embraer from a landslide of orders. As I said on the SWA Article, expect orders from WN, Star Alliance, Chautauqua, and Delta. Timing is everthing.

Interesting that Boyd thinks that the EMB series threatens the 320 and 737. They will not have the coast to coast capability of those a/c, but the economic contest between 300 to 2100nm will be easily handled by the E series. The EMB 195 can carry up to 117 pax, so I guess this could definitely put a dent in sales of the 320 & 737 series.
 
Perhaps my viewpoint is a little pessimistic and I trust someone outhere will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a bad trend for future pilots?

It seems that most of us are pretty short sighted, but if your a regional pilot hoping to someday be a pilot for a major, with all the benefit/salary that entails this is bad news.

WHY? Because there simply will be fewer seats in the Airbus/737 class aircraft to be filled and more of the lower paying slots in these big RJs. I just don't see why this is something for pilots to be happy about.........
 
Let's just make sure these are flown by mainline pilots under mainline contracts, not farmed out to the lowest bidder.
 
Interesting. This is the first time I've seen them called "big RJ's." RBRJ (really big RJ) would be a 767?
 
The definintion of an RJ

So can we just say that any low-wing with an under-wing engine installation isn't an RJ and be done with it?

Then that brings into question the MD-80/DC-9 series. So, anything with 5 across seating isn't an RJ, nor is anything with slides (all current 'RJ's have dropped fronts like a pimped out Civic to get around the escape slide rule)

So, an RJ is:
-not a low-wing under-wing engine install
-not 5 abreast seating or more
-not equiped with emergency slides

Mainline, please keep these jets to yourselves, b/c if regionals get their hands on them, the idea of every pilot a mainliner will morph into every pilot paid and compensated like an RJ driver.
 
Re: The definintion of an RJ

stillaboo said:
So can we just say that any low-wing with an under-wing engine installation isn't an RJ and be done with it?

Mainline, please keep these jets to yourselves, b/c if regionals get their hands on them, the idea of every pilot a mainliner will morph into every pilot paid and compensated like an RJ driver.

What did he say????
 
... but isn't this a bad trend for future pilots?


"Modular Concept" -- I'd say them's fancy college boy words fer pilots gettin 22k a year to blow (up) the inflatable autopilot (a la Airplane) :D
 
Re: Re: The definintion of an RJ

MetroSheriff said:
What did he say????

Is there confusion, or did I miss the joke?

I just want mainline to keep the EMB-170 and 190's so that they'll pay better with better bene's and create more jobs that are high compensation rather than the lower comp. of a regional.
 
Stillaboo,

You have the right attitude. Your long term thinking is correct. The people who want otherwise probably think they won't get hired at a "mainline" carrier.

Bye Bye---General Lee:rolleyes: ;)
 
Rein it in

Let's bring her back on-topic here.

Topic: I believe that customers perceive the E170 series to be superior to the Canadair 700/900 (for the above-mentioned reasons).

Will Canadair be able to either enhance their existing product or create an entirely new product to remain competitive in that market (70 - 110 pax)?

A few aftermarket enhancements that Canadair might consider:

1. custom-built jetways designed for CRJ series airplanes provided at no cost to CRJ customers (NOT adapters modifying existing equipment).

2. redesign the lavatory on the 50 seater.

3. redesign the overhead bins and take advantage of every square inch of space.

The EMB170 is a spectacular airplane -- Canadair's going to have to do more than sit back and watch if they intend for the CRJ700 & CRJ900 to be a competitive product.

home.jpg
 
I agree with Furloughed Again.

I have flown as a PAX on the CRJ-700 and I thought it was awful for a 2+ hour flight. I don't think I would mind a 60 minute flight as much, but it was very uncomfortable for any longer - and my "normal size" carry-on wouldn't even come close to fitting in the small overhead bins - I am sure corporate travelers hate the CRJs (and probably the ERJs). The difference is that if you fly on a CRJ-700 to a bigger airport like PHX or LAX, then you are not likely to be directly given your bag once the airplane has parked - instead you have to proceed to the baggage carrosel - and WAIT like everyone else. Why pack a small carry-on at all?

I think the EMB-170/190 will be a breath of fresh air. It's too bad that Dornier 728 never came to fruition - it would have fit the bill as well with great technology. From a passenger standpoint, the EMB-170/190 will be a winner and people like me will continue to avoid the CRJ-700/900 on longer routes of 2+ hours. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind FLYING a CRJ-700/900, but as a PAX it sucks........... Nobody can deny that on long flights.
 
If it were up to me to choose a 100 seater aircraft for Delta it would be the A318---with a Jetblue type maintenence deal. (Yeah, I know---there was no such deal---and there wasn't anyone on the grassy knoll either....) I have been a pax on the A319 (NW version) and I thought it was very nice and roomy. I am sure the big wigs at Delta could get some deal that involved discounts for larger purchases. Also, the A318 is actually flying today (Frontier)---so there wouldn't be a long delay like the EMB-190. And, even though we fly all Boeing (and MCDon) currently---it helps sometimes to have more than one manufacturer so you don't get gouged. (Boeing has tried to sell us winglest for our 737-800s for $1 mil a piece, and offered the same to European LCC's for $500,000----not good) Our President--Fred Reid--was the head of Lufthansa and brought the newer versions of the Airbus (not the older A300s) to Lufthansa--so he knows people at that company.

Bye Bye--General Lee:cool: :rolleyes: ;)
 

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