Memorization problems.

[scubabri]

Well, Here I am back flight instructing after deciding that I was not ready for Ameriflight. I made it through the indoc and systems without much of a problem.

My problem, memorization of the flow's and integration into the sim. I found that I spent way to much time in the cockpit trying to recall a particular flow and while I was thinking about that, I would get off on altitude, heading or whatever. By the time that I got the flows down good enough, I was just way behind.

I was getting the flows down chair flying and sitting in the PA31 cockpit, but when I got in the sim, that I couldn't seem to divide my attention between recalling the flows and flying the aircraft within commercial standards.

I'm also thinking that maybe the "training" at Ameriflight was just to fast and that I needed more time. I didn't get the feeling from the instructors that that was an option.

I know that I am a good pilot, and make good decisions, but this has knocked the wind outta my sails a bit.

So my question to all of you in the know, how do I fix this problem? Obviously this is going to be career limiting if I can't get something as basic as a PA31 flow.

 

[350DRIVER]

scubabri,

Most all the training departments have this process down to a Science but it does take a substantial amount of effort to be given by the pilot to make this work. This is even more difficult and intense when you are training for a "single pilot" operation as you were. I remember doing my single pilot 135 ride, the workload was much more "involved" than that of a two crew environment. You may just need to spend more time getting "comfortable". There is not too much you can do when you have already arrived on property for the training, they will work with you but only to a certain extent since in reality you are expected to be to standards and already have the "basics" down. If I were you I would chalk this one up as a "learning experience" and try to avoid getting into another similiar situation until you are more prepared. Did they wash you out or did you just quit?

I'm also thinking that maybe the "training" at Ameriflight was just to fast and that I needed more time. I didn't get the feeling from the instructors that that was an option.

Many of the larger 135 flight departments are more fast paced and they often are time restricted when it comes to the training process but they also will work with the applicant if a "minor" problem is noticed and they will try to get you up to speed... They cannot train to proficiency since you are already expected to be at a certain level prior to showing up for day 1.

I know that I am a good pilot, and make good decisions, but this has knocked the wind outta my sails a bit.

Mind over matter, keep the chin up and don't give up. Many dissapointments in life and this will not be your last one. Give it six months to a year and try again. Success is usually obtained through failure(s).

So my question to all of you in the know, how do I fix this problem? Obviously this is going to be career limiting if I can't get something as basic as a PA31 flow.

It is hard to duplicate actual "real world" experience so I would suggest latching on to a smaller scale 135 department and getting the "experience" that way. Many of the smaller departments can be a great step to making you a better, more experienced, and more well rounded pilot. Do not let one bad experience get you down, I am sure many others have been in your shoes at some point in the past.


good luck,

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[LAXSaabdude]

First of all, don't sell yourself short. There is nothing "basic" about flying a PA31 single pilot IMC at night. It's a handful no matter what.

That being said, I don't recall "flows" being much of an issue from my PA31 box hauling days. Now keep in mind, I was flying for a little rinky-dink outfut that is out of business now, so training and standardization were not really strong points with the company, but the only "flow" I can remember was the generic "GUMP" before landing flow.

What exactly are they training over there? Give a little more info, and maybe I or someone else can chime in with some help.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

In certainly understand your problem with memorizing stuff. It's one thing to sit in your hotel room and memorize flows well enough to regurgitate them but once you get in the sim and have 100 other things going on it can certainly create one hell of a brain fart. My suggestion is rather than trying to memorize a list of things for each flow, memorize a shape or pattern that your hand makes as it "flows" from one switch to another in the proper order. That way you don't actually memorize anything except which shape or pattern you need for each phase of flight. It certainly helped me out a few times. I guess this can't help you too much with Ameriflight but don't give up, I'm certain you'll have more opportunities in the future. You can always practice by making up senseless flows for the aircraft you are flying and then try to do them while you are flying around with your students. They don't even have to know you are doing them as you can do them silently. Keep you head up and good luck.

 

[vclean]

Bounce a basketball, skip rope, balance a small ball on a book, etc. Do something that requires physical coordination and mental concentration while recalling your flows, memory items and so on.

Good luck,

 

[scubabri]

After the evaluation sim ride, which I didn't pass, I stepped outside took a deep breath and contemplated the whole experience from the interview all the way through the training.

I spent a week in Indoc training which covered company ops, 135, IFR procedures, weather, hazmat, etc. Passed the written.

The day of the written we were handed a multi page document which was a poorly laid out description of the required flows. Along with that we were given a company aircraft training manual, and a poor video tape of a older systems ground school. We were told to watch the video tapes and memorize limitations, flows and memory items (which was really just basic engine out and electrical stuff) by monday, this was saturday, so basically we were given a day and a half to memorize this stuff.

monday came around and our systems instructor called in sick so we had an extra day and we had to get special permission to sit in the cockpit of a PA31. For me this was really the first time sitting in the left seat of one so it allowed me to at least get an idea of where everything was.

The flows though, still didn't make sense. Mostly because in some cases, they seemed to wander and not really flow.

By tuesday we were into our first day of systems training and esentially it was just a rehash of what we saw in the video tape, day two was the same, although we had about an hour with the instructor in a PA31 cockpit explaining how the flows worked.

So now, things started to make sense. Now it's time for the Sim training, which is an old PA31 that is wrapped around an ATC 810.

Our first day was very simple, take off out of ONT, POM, PDZ. But our task was to do the flows all the way up to cruise. I actually did very well on this.

Sim two was the same, only an ILS into CNO, this is were things started to fall apart for me. Again, trying to fly the plane and recall the flows was very challenging, and I will admit that my instrument skills were more rusty than I though, something I will work on for sure.

Next sim was a do over of Sim 2

Sim 3 was engine failures, single engine ILS again, didn't do two well on this, because the flows don't change, I worked real hard chair flying to get the flows memorized

Had to sim 3 over again

Sim 4 was CRM stuff.

Sim 5 was an evaluation, at this point, I still just wasn't on top of things enough and after the evaluation and having felt that someone had just kicked me in the nuts, and talking to the sim instructor, I decided to call it quits, fall back and regroup. Even though the instructor said that the best way was to spend time in the sim, I still felt down deep that I really wasn't prepared enough, both before I got there and during my training.

I wouldn't trade the experience for the world, and hopefully with that, and help from flight info people, I can focus time on the areas that I felt I was weak on.

So, no I just need to figure out how to do that. I've found that partially flight instruction has taken the skills that I had that were really good, such as my instrument scan and procedures and just made them to rusty.

I guess I need to figure out how to balance flight instruction and real world flying. Unfortunatly it's hard enough to live on a flight instructors pay, let alone try and figure out how to fly. That and being in socal and the lack of weather, makes it hard to stay current.

People do it, I'm just no sure how. I really would like to find a job that will allow me to build that experience, I thought Ameriflight was it, but I guess I was wrong.

sb

 

[350DRIVER]

It does appear that you were given numerous chances though in the sim sessions so I would probably get with a company that specializes in sim training/evaluation(s). This probably will help quite a bit with regards to the flows and memory items since obviously it does appear that your problems/concerns occured when you got into the sim. Some people have problems with the sim portion of the training and this does seem to wash a few out so I would suggest tailoring a course towards (or letting some company do this )your areas of problem(s) that you noted, this will probably help much more than anything..


just my $.02

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[Rook]

All of the posts are dead on. I happen to agree with 350 driver the most. The flows should be likened to tryint to memorize a script for a play. I had a sim instructor tell me that a few years ago. Remember to always keep a positive attitude. Not trying to give you a warm fuzzy but it's true. Some airlines have flows which are techniques other's have published flows which need to be followed to a tee.

In a previous post about flows someone brought up the point that memorizing flows began when you first started practicing emerg procedures. It's the same concept my friend. Just chalk it up to being a learning experience. I had a poster hung up in my room and practiced and practiced and practiced. Repetition is the name of the game. And chair flying is a much ignored concept. Hang in there friend.

Rook
600' AGL Autopilot on.
'WHEW!'

 

[Caveman]

Hey CAPTAIN Rook,

I noticed that brand new CL-65 rating in your profile! Congratulations my friend. That's terrific news. When I logged in to post this reply I got your PM. Congrats and I'll be sure to let everyone here know. OUTSTANDING!

 

[Cosmo1999]

hey man keep your head up. A friend of mine didnt make it through training at an airline a couple years ago. He went back got more experience instructing, got a corporate job then finally got in at skywest. I would say just keep doing what your doing. The way I memorize my flows on the CRJ is to get flash cards and write each flow item for each phase of flight, before start, after start, before T/O etc and just memorize where my hands should go for each phase and what the switch position should be and the "triggering event". Example before start is done anytime as long as you have enough time for your pushback stuff you check the gravity crossflow checked, pressurization set and checked, wing ovht tested, and verify altimiters are set. It makes a nice L shaped pattern. The rest can be verified with the checklist. Turn it into a good learning experience and im sure you will get another job somewhere. Lots of people bust a P/C at some point in their career.

 

[amfteamster]

Was Bob Sulihian your instructor? Just curious. How many flows and how important could they actually be in a chieftain?

Just curious if your instructor was putting too much emphasis on the wrong things!

Sulihian is the embarrasement of AMF and is known for that kind of crap!

Sorry about your bad luck. Get your skills up to speed and try somewhere else.

 

[100LL... Again!]

You mentioned that you felt your scan or IFR skils were a touch rusty.

This is most likely the causal factor. In order to integrate flows and profile-oriented flying, you need to have such solid IFR skills that they are pretty much second nature. Go get in a frasca or similar sim, and get a good procedure-oriented CFII to give it to you good. Fly as many different types of approaches as you can, until you can do it in your sleep.

I'm sure you are a perfectly capable pilot, but maybe knocking the rust off while integrating the other stuff was just enough to put you behind. Happens to lots of folks. Don't knock yourslef down, either. Take it as a learning experience, get polished up, and go back and tell 'em to bring it on. You'll do fine.

 

[100LL... Again!]

You mentioned that you felt your scan or IFR skils were a touch rusty.

This is most likely the causal factor. In order to integrate flows and profile-oriented flying, you need to have such solid IFR skills that they are pretty much second nature. Go get in a frasca or similar sim, and get a good procedure-oriented CFII to give it to you good. Fly as many different types of approaches as you can, until you can do it in your sleep.

I'm sure you are a perfectly capable pilot, but maybe knocking the rust off while integrating the other stuff was just enough to put you behind. Happens to lots of folks. Don't knock yourslef down, either. Take it as a learning experience, get polished up, and go back and tell 'em to bring it on. You'll do fine.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I'd reiterate what 100LL just said. A good friend of mine from college had a similar experience at WestAir many years ago. He is a superb pilot but his instrument skills were rusty when he arrived at training and there just wasn't any time in the program to help him. He failed the course but took it as a sign he needed to improve his instrument skills. He spent the next six months working on that and then got on with Rocky Mountain and now works for American.

Airline flying is instrument flying, especially at the early stages when you don't have the luxury of an autopilot. I doubt the flows had much to do with the problem. Work on the instrument flying and you won't have any problem next time.


Typhoonpilot

 

[pipejockey]

Was Bob Sulihian your instructor? Just curious. How many flows and how important could they actually be in a chieftain?


Sulihian is the embarrasement of AMF and is known for that kind of crap!

Well I said, as it were, and asked myself, self, should I retire and move to Oxnard?

He reminds me of Kermit thee Frog!

 

[scubabri]

Yeah.. had him for the indoc, but not the systems, part of me deciding to not continue was I heard that he was going to be my training captain, not my idea of a good time from what I saw in the indoc.

Very knowlegeable, but presentation was lacking.

sb

 

[350DRIVER]

, part of me deciding to not continue was I heard that he was going to be my training captain, not my idea of a good time from what I saw in the indoc.

scubabri,

Good luck to you in whatever your future endeavors/desires may consist of BUT keep in mind that these "types" of people do exist in every flight department all across the board and they will not be going away anytime soon. Do not make choices based on who you may or may not have to interact with at some point in the training process. I would get into the habit early on of being able to "adapt" to the more difficult types that you will come in contact with, just a matter of time before you are going to meet these guys. Some have egos and chips on their shoulders so it is not going to always be a smooth ride that is all fun and games. Regroup and let your flying skills get you through regardless of how "difficult" and "bitter" of a person is that you may run into.

It is not always a "good time". . . Don't let "presentation" stop you from advancing or anything else along those lines. Some variables in the equation are beyond your control, here is a perfect example.


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